WynnS123

I keep the balls of my foot on the brake pedal, and use my heel to blip the throttle.

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You should never disengage your drive wheels in a braking zone. You never know when you will need to get back on the gas for any reason especially while wheel to wheel racing. Sometimes you will need to get instant weight transfer to the rear, and the best way to do that is applying more gas. For example, lets say you aren't trailing off the brakes enough going in to a corner and you get over steer. You would need to counter steer and accelerate to get more weight transfer to the wheels that need traction.

jelanier

Thanks everyone for replying to my questions. This is obviously a very spirited discussion and I have learned a lot from it.
I see pros and cons for different techniques. What a great forum!

I have a track day this weekend at RA with Rezoom Motorsports. Maybe I will experiment with some of this if I can keep my head on straight. It is hard to "think" about shifting while dealing with the track.

Thanks,

Jim

zeitgeist

The only way to find what techniques works best for you is to try different methods and use data acquisition to determine what is faster and more consistent. What works for some people may not work best for you. I almost always do multiple downshifts for each gear releasing the clutch each time. For ME this is consistent and offers a measure of safety in case I don't get the blip or coordination just right. On a slick wet track with RWD and no ABS I like the margin of safety. In a FWD car with ABS when it is dry I still use the same technique to be consistent but I have tried a single downshift and it worked well too. As for the OP question I agree with those that have said don't press the clutch until you can do the downshift. Remember data doesn't lie. If your time is better overall or just in that corner especially then THAT is the right technique.

robrob

Quote:

I keep the balls of my foot on the brake pedal, and use my heel to blip the throttle.

Most driving schools recommend keeping your heel on the floor and pivoting on your heel as you move your right foot from throttle to brake. Keeping your heel on the floor while braking allows you to use the smaller, finer control muscles of the calf, foot and even toes to modulate the brake pressure instead of your thigh muscles with your heel off the floor. To use this technique and throttle blip you must have the right pedal spacing to roll your foot and blip the throttle with the right side of your shoe. That being said there are some very fast drivers that actually use their heel and toe to brake and blip.

WynnS123

I used to prefer that method in previous cars, but the spacing on a stock pedal S2k is just too far apart for me to do that. I got used to doing it this way, but maybe I should pick up a pedal extender like yours.

robrob

WindingRoad, on 15 August 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

The factory brake bias on a production car has been very well developed for the last decade or so. However, these systems are designed without the "engine-brake" in mind.

Quote:

Says who? You can rest assured that the abs systems in modern cars ARE designed to operate normally when PROPER braking technique is used (clutch remaining engaged).

You take a factory brake system and its built in bias set up for the car in its stock form and add r-compound tires, 255 width tires up front and a track optimized suspension and the brake bias moves rearward due to the much higher weight transfer under threshold braking. That's why the rear tires on track S2000s go into ABS much sooner than the fronts--this assumes you can actually modulate the brakes enough to keep from going directly into full four wheel ABS.

jelanier

Hmmm, my first track day instructor told me the same thing. For the most part, I follow those directions. You seem to feel more in control if you are engaged (whether accelerating or decelerating). Coasting with clutch in gives you an eerie feeling.

dan_uk

it is eerie! you should try it in a turn!
I accidently coasted in neutral at not far off full chat into T12 at the last Nasa event when went over the rumbles and misshifted

so the engine is going quieter, the cars going faster because its bombing down the hill and the rear feels like someone took the wheels off and put donuts on the back hehe

robrob

I finally got a chance to research the clutch during braking issue. I reviewed "Going Faster" by Skip Barber, "Drive to Win" by Carroll Smith, "Sports Car and Competition Driving" by Paul Frere and "The Front-Wheel Driving High-Performance Advantage" by Jack Doo. None mention the clutch during braking other than when executing heel-and-toe downshifts and none of these books discuss ABS brakes or braking technique.

Since I have taken some grief in the past (not from ZDan) about my 6th to 2nd downshifts I would like to quote Skip Barber and Carroll Smith about skipping gears during braking:

Skip Barber, "You can either go down through the gears one at a time, or you can go from fourth to first rather than stopping at third and second along the way, but like everything else, there are pros and cons for each method of downshifting...In our data collection we have found that even very experienced and talented drivers tend to release some brake pressure when they blip the throttle for downshifts." (Going Faster page 98)

Carroll Smith, "What I am saying is that, to me, it seems that rowing down through all of the gears with a "standard", non-sequential, gearbox is both a waste of time and effort and a detriment to efficient braking." (Drive to Win page 2-25)

Skip Barber also mentions that there has always been a lot of disagreement on driving technique among the top drivers so disagreement on this kind of stuff is pretty standard and this is why ZDan's attitude in this thread isn't appreciated. A civil, well crafted argument is appreciated by all who read these forums.

One more Carroll Smith quote, "You can't argue with lap times."

jelanier

I hear you and the input by all is appreciated. My question does not really deal with skipping gears, but whether you should do your braking while in gear (any gear )

I have the Barber book that you have, but the downshifting and braking are covered in separate sections. They don't explain the braking/downshifting simultaneously. Perhaps I was not clear in my original post.

So...do I brake and stay in gear until I slow enough to quickly downshift to a lower gear while still braking throughout the transitions? In other words..braking and downshifting trying to have clutch engaged in some gear all the time.

Thanks again for your help

Jim