Thoughts from R&C crew on this brake swap
02-23-2017, 02:59 PM
#1
Thoughts from R&C crew on this brake swap
I am potentially going to attempt th TL-S brake swap
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-br...hread-1072883/
I bought the calipers and have been investigating my options, but am at a bit of an impasse with what route to go or if to even just bag the whole thing. I don't have the calipers yet and don't really trust the #s tossed around with regard to milling, so everything is based off of my measurements so far (I plan to update that thread with better #s if I move forward. I think all said and done I can do this for under $500, not including pads.
Option 1:
use NSX rotors and mill off ~5mm from the caliper. The negative to this is that the rotors are 3x the cost of an S2000 rotor and likely to only get more expensive. Also they are 28mm thick vs the 25mm that the TL-S has causing less pad clearance (I think they fit but milling has to be right on). The extra thickness adds about 1.5lb per rotor and based on the NSX forums these crack too! I have17x8 RPF1s, which have lots of clearance, but this rotor would result in 3mm less
Option 2:
use S2000 rotor and mill roughly 8mm off. The only real negative is that the original thickness is 22mm, so 8mm is like 36%! This option does give the most wheel clearance.
Option 3:
use S2000 rotor with a custom 3mm steel spacer behind the rotor and ~5mm milled. Only downside is the spacer behind the rotor, but I would make it from steel and drill it to fit perfectly with the screws that hold the rotor on. This is the option I am sorta leaning towards.
Option 4:
bag the whole thing, sell the calipers and buy a BBK. This kit won't do a ton except make pad changes easier, shave weight, look 1000% better, and possibly function better (the pads are a ton larger, but more expensive). The negative is I have to give up and sell the calipers
also the OP did Time Serts, I was going to do helicoil as I can't find a shop to do Time serts. Investigating the time sert may be stronger, but it may be overkill given that once tightened there are no forces on the threads. Plus it seems lots of guys strip these calipers and have good luck with the helicoil. Any concerns with this?
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-br...hread-1072883/
I bought the calipers and have been investigating my options, but am at a bit of an impasse with what route to go or if to even just bag the whole thing. I don't have the calipers yet and don't really trust the #s tossed around with regard to milling, so everything is based off of my measurements so far (I plan to update that thread with better #s if I move forward. I think all said and done I can do this for under $500, not including pads.
Option 1:
use NSX rotors and mill off ~5mm from the caliper. The negative to this is that the rotors are 3x the cost of an S2000 rotor and likely to only get more expensive. Also they are 28mm thick vs the 25mm that the TL-S has causing less pad clearance (I think they fit but milling has to be right on). The extra thickness adds about 1.5lb per rotor and based on the NSX forums these crack too! I have17x8 RPF1s, which have lots of clearance, but this rotor would result in 3mm less
Option 2:
use S2000 rotor and mill roughly 8mm off. The only real negative is that the original thickness is 22mm, so 8mm is like 36%! This option does give the most wheel clearance.
Option 3:
use S2000 rotor with a custom 3mm steel spacer behind the rotor and ~5mm milled. Only downside is the spacer behind the rotor, but I would make it from steel and drill it to fit perfectly with the screws that hold the rotor on. This is the option I am sorta leaning towards.
Option 4:
bag the whole thing, sell the calipers and buy a BBK. This kit won't do a ton except make pad changes easier, shave weight, look 1000% better, and possibly function better (the pads are a ton larger, but more expensive). The negative is I have to give up and sell the calipers
also the OP did Time Serts, I was going to do helicoil as I can't find a shop to do Time serts. Investigating the time sert may be stronger, but it may be overkill given that once tightened there are no forces on the threads. Plus it seems lots of guys strip these calipers and have good luck with the helicoil. Any concerns with this?
Last edited by bgoetz; 02-23-2017 at 03:04 PM.
02-23-2017, 04:15 PM
#2
Bag the whole thing and do option 4.
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
02-23-2017, 04:30 PM
#3
Bag the whole thing and do option 4.
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
Also
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
Also
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
Also is comparing a girodisc rotor "apples to apples" with say a Stoptech standard disc? Figure $1000 for the TL/Giro disc setup what BBK has a comparable rotor?
Last edited by bgoetz; 02-23-2017 at 05:39 PM.
02-23-2017, 04:32 PM
#4
The one thing I kinda wanted was any "red flags" with regards to safety of the milling/helicoil or just a general PITA associated with the spacer under the rotor.
i am somewhat excited about the swap, but don't want to compromise safety or function.
i am somewhat excited about the swap, but don't want to compromise safety or function.
Last edited by bgoetz; 02-23-2017 at 05:34 PM.
02-24-2017, 07:34 AM
#5
Bag the whole thing and do option 4.
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
Option 2 and 3 suck because they use the S2000 rotor. Two problems with the S2k rotor - 1) thermal capacity 2) rate of heat dissipation. The two combined are the cause of poor pad life and cracked rotors. Option 1 sucks due to rotor cost, and they're likely not that much better than the s2k rotor as far as heat dissipation and thermal capacity are concerned. You could technically buy 2-piece rotors from giro-disc for options 2/3, and possibly for option 1 do the same from racing brake or another manufacturer, but at that point, you're not saving any money at all since those rotors are $300 to $400+.
I don't see the point in re-inventing the wheel.
The biggest weakness in the s2k braking system isn't the caliper, it's the tiny 1-piece rotor up front and the tiny solid (non-vented) rear rotor. They can't handle the heat and end up transferring it to everything else (pads, calipers, fluid, hubs).
02-25-2017, 08:05 AM
#6
i wouldn't mind hearing other opinions though. I have the calipers, so I am already part way there. My car is a fun weekend/HPDE car and I hate the way the OEM brakes look. I understand the REAL issues behind the OEM brakes, that said I can have something maybe a touch better performance wise and far more aesthetically pleasing. I just dont want to cause any issues
Last edited by bgoetz; 02-25-2017 at 08:11 AM.
02-25-2017, 10:44 AM
#7
i wouldn't mind hearing other opinions though. I have the calipers, so I am already part way there. My car is a fun weekend/HPDE car and I hate the way the OEM brakes look. I understand the REAL issues behind the OEM brakes, that said I can have something maybe a touch better performance wise and far more aesthetically pleasing. I just dont want to cause any issues
I prefer someone else being a crash test dummy for things like this. Props to StopTech, Urge, Sake Bomb, Wilwood, Ap-Racing, etc. etc. for designing braking systems and testing it for us so we don't have to find out on track whether or not it works...
Report back your results. You'll be one of the documented firsts to do this...
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02-25-2017, 11:08 AM
#8
If you don't mind being the guinea pig for a major safety component of your car (the thing that stops it), have at it.
I prefer someone else being a crash test dummy for things like this. Props to StopTech, Urge, Sake Bomb, Wilwood, Ap-Racing, etc. etc. for designing braking systems and testing it for us so we don't have to find out on track whether or not it works...
Report back your results. You'll be one of the documented firsts to do this...
I prefer someone else being a crash test dummy for things like this. Props to StopTech, Urge, Sake Bomb, Wilwood, Ap-Racing, etc. etc. for designing braking systems and testing it for us so we don't have to find out on track whether or not it works...
Report back your results. You'll be one of the documented firsts to do this...
1) milling of the caliper, IMO this is the greatest risk, I would be taking 5mm off of 22mm original bracket. The worse thing that could happen is that it could shear under hard braking and yes that would be bad. Looking at it though I am actually more inclined to think that if the 5mm weakens the mounts it will cause flex when clamping as opposed to wreaking laterally, I don't think the thickness plays much into the lateral strength (at least not reducing 5mm).
2)spacer behind the rotor. I don't plan to extend the lug nuts, but 5mm seems to be the general limit, I am sticking to 3. The bigger concern is corrosion behind the rotor causing problems, but I plant to make them from steal (to keep like materials together) and was going to carry the screw hole through from the rotor to make sure they get well secured. Plus I will slather some anti seize between the surfaces.
3) helicoil in the caliper. I think the worse thing here is that I strip the caliper out during install or subsequent removal. Once those things are tightened down there is no force on those threads.
02-25-2017, 11:34 AM
#9
Risk to reward ratio.
Rewards:
-Looks better than OEM system, and about on par with aftermarket BBKs
-Save ~$500 vs. StopTech or SakeBomb Wilwood offering
-Better performance than OEM, but probably a notch below StopTech/SakeBomb (especially if OEM 1-piece rotors are still initially used)
-Unique
-Personal mental reward/achievement that you did something different and custom?
Risk:
-catastrophic failure from - 1) bracket sheering 2) lugs sheering due to spacer 3) bracket flexing and causing some other unplanned braking issues/failure
-material used / milling done incorrectly increasing risk of failure
-non-catastrophic system failure requiring replacement back to OEM or buying a BBK, resulting in lost time and money
-other oversight/failure not considered
It seems like a lot of potential risk for what I would consider very little reward.
Option 4) bag it and reconsider your priorities. Custom options for this particular component/application only make sense when nothing else is available.
Rewards:
-Looks better than OEM system, and about on par with aftermarket BBKs
-Save ~$500 vs. StopTech or SakeBomb Wilwood offering
-Better performance than OEM, but probably a notch below StopTech/SakeBomb (especially if OEM 1-piece rotors are still initially used)
-Unique
-Personal mental reward/achievement that you did something different and custom?
Risk:
-catastrophic failure from - 1) bracket sheering 2) lugs sheering due to spacer 3) bracket flexing and causing some other unplanned braking issues/failure
-material used / milling done incorrectly increasing risk of failure
-non-catastrophic system failure requiring replacement back to OEM or buying a BBK, resulting in lost time and money
-other oversight/failure not considered
It seems like a lot of potential risk for what I would consider very little reward.
Option 4) bag it and reconsider your priorities. Custom options for this particular component/application only make sense when nothing else is available.
02-25-2017, 12:44 PM
#10
Risk to reward ratio.
Rewards:
-Looks better than OEM system, and about on par with aftermarket BBKs
-Save ~$500 vs. StopTech or SakeBomb Wilwood offering
-Better performance than OEM, but probably a notch below StopTech/SakeBomb (especially if OEM 1-piece rotors are still initially used)
-Unique
-Personal mental reward/achievement that you did something different and custom?
Risk:
-catastrophic failure from - 1) bracket sheering 2) lugs sheering due to spacer 3) bracket flexing and causing some other unplanned braking issues/failure
-material used / milling done incorrectly increasing risk of failure
-non-catastrophic system failure requiring replacement back to OEM or buying a BBK, resulting in lost time and money
-other oversight/failure not considered
It seems like a lot of potential risk for what I would consider very little reward.
Option 4) bag it and reconsider your priorities. Custom options for this particular component/application only make sense when nothing else is available.
Rewards:
-Looks better than OEM system, and about on par with aftermarket BBKs
-Save ~$500 vs. StopTech or SakeBomb Wilwood offering
-Better performance than OEM, but probably a notch below StopTech/SakeBomb (especially if OEM 1-piece rotors are still initially used)
-Unique
-Personal mental reward/achievement that you did something different and custom?
Risk:
-catastrophic failure from - 1) bracket sheering 2) lugs sheering due to spacer 3) bracket flexing and causing some other unplanned braking issues/failure
-material used / milling done incorrectly increasing risk of failure
-non-catastrophic system failure requiring replacement back to OEM or buying a BBK, resulting in lost time and money
-other oversight/failure not considered
It seems like a lot of potential risk for what I would consider very little reward.
Option 4) bag it and reconsider your priorities. Custom options for this particular component/application only make sense when nothing else is available.
that is a fair enough perspective, I am just considering how real the risk actually is. There is a risk in any modification or work that you do to your car, but I get it, these are brakes.
For the record though the Stoptech kit is $1400 minimum, Wilwood $1200. So the cost difference is more like $800-900.