STR Prep - Suspension and Alignment
02-02-2012, 04:01 AM
#172
Thread Starter
If I was a moderator I would move all this winnie stuff to an STR Prep - Winnie Thoughts and Frustration thread.
The opening post.
Winnie the movie
[/winnie] (please)
The opening post.
Winnie the movie
[/winnie] (please)
02-02-2012, 02:32 PM
#175
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Arizona
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Originally Posted by Random1' timestamp='1328065922' post='21371712
[quote name='762' timestamp='1328063548' post='21371587']
car being "bouncy" seems more like rebound to me then compression.
car being "bouncy" seems more like rebound to me then compression.
If compression gets too high the tire can be overloaded and break loose. Compression is usually how I adapt to different surfaces, Lincoln and BDI Airports gets more compression than our local Marana Airport pavement. When it rains the compression goes down some.
In general adjust compression until the tires start loosing grip (gets over loaded) and then back off a bit. Then adjust rebound to control the energy that a particular compression setting allows to get into the spring.
I have a setting that seems to work, but I don't quite know the effect a change in rear compression has vs. the change in front rebound.
I know compression loads the tire quickly, but if I soften front rebound more weight will transfer to the rear and make the car less "loose". In my mind, lowering rear compression would produce a similar effect, but I know it is not that simple.
[/quote]
Just want to hit on this again to help me learn a bit for adjusting my doubles.
More compression = more resistance to compress and tire loads quicker. So in respect to front and rear correlation, if you run a highER compression setting on the front, the front loads quicker than the rear. I correlate that to weight transfering to the front outside tire first, not the outside rear. It makes sense that reducing front compression could load the rear tires faster but ultimately which tire gets loaded to the max at a quicker rate? I think that would be good to know. I would guess that MOST of the time, durring a steady state corner with only enough throttle to keep steady speed, the front would if you are running a stiffer front bar and greater wheel rate induced by higher spring rates. The I would think that adjusting the knobs on the rear shocks will do more for rear traction than the fronts and should be adjusted first if you need more rear traction. That or adjust driving style. But in real autoX situations, we rarely see a true steady state, steady speed corner. You have to know when the car is getting rear loose to tune it out. Most of time it has been corner exit for me.
I've been told that compliance is king. Run with the lowest settings possible for most compliance to give you the most grip. Essentially start at zero and tune compression until you start to skip and back off a click or two. Then tune rebound. Tune transitional response and feel from which you should go lower on compression, not higher.
Perfect world we'd all have the time and resources to do this testing! I need a test and tune day!!!
02-02-2012, 06:45 PM
#176
Registered User
If the front and rear ball joints are the same, then i can measure. what needs to be measured?
i have an spc in one hand, and a rear oem in the other, lets do this.
i have an spc in one hand, and a rear oem in the other, lets do this.
02-03-2012, 04:41 AM
#177
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 762' timestamp='1328074383' post='21372051
[quote name='Random1' timestamp='1328065922' post='21371712']
[quote name='762' timestamp='1328063548' post='21371587']
car being "bouncy" seems more like rebound to me then compression.
[quote name='762' timestamp='1328063548' post='21371587']
car being "bouncy" seems more like rebound to me then compression.
If compression gets too high the tire can be overloaded and break loose. Compression is usually how I adapt to different surfaces, Lincoln and BDI Airports gets more compression than our local Marana Airport pavement. When it rains the compression goes down some.
In general adjust compression until the tires start loosing grip (gets over loaded) and then back off a bit. Then adjust rebound to control the energy that a particular compression setting allows to get into the spring.
I have a setting that seems to work, but I don't quite know the effect a change in rear compression has vs. the change in front rebound.
I know compression loads the tire quickly, but if I soften front rebound more weight will transfer to the rear and make the car less "loose". In my mind, lowering rear compression would produce a similar effect, but I know it is not that simple.
[/quote]
Just want to hit on this again to help me learn a bit for adjusting my doubles.
More compression = more resistance to compress and tire loads quicker. So in respect to front and rear correlation, if you run a highER compression setting on the front, the front loads quicker than the rear. I correlate that to weight transfering to the front outside tire first, not the outside rear. It makes sense that reducing front compression could load the rear tires faster but ultimately which tire gets loaded to the max at a quicker rate? I think that would be good to know. I would guess that MOST of the time, durring a steady state corner with only enough throttle to keep steady speed, the front would if you are running a stiffer front bar and greater wheel rate induced by higher spring rates. The I would think that adjusting the knobs on the rear shocks will do more for rear traction than the fronts and should be adjusted first if you need more rear traction. That or adjust driving style. But in real autoX situations, we rarely see a true steady state, steady speed corner. You have to know when the car is getting rear loose to tune it out. Most of time it has been corner exit for me.
I've been told that compliance is king. Run with the lowest settings possible for most compliance to give you the most grip. Essentially start at zero and tune compression until you start to skip and back off a click or two. Then tune rebound. Tune transitional response and feel from which you should go lower on compression, not higher.
Perfect world we'd all have the time and resources to do this testing! I need a test and tune day!!!
[/quote]
We have a test and tune on the calendar for the end of March, in time for the SD Tour!
02-03-2012, 05:01 AM
#178
Rambling Part
OK guys and teddy bears, my 100 mile / six day old Moton Clubsports had a ruptured reservoir line. PITA. Perhaps that explains the handling... Not sure if it was bad from factory or not -- I looked everything over prior to installation, but did not scrutinize every inch. It was the front passenger's side, and it was neither loose or tight nor attached at the point it ruptured. It was just inside the splash shield and just above the swaybar. Nothing to rub on -- I cannot figure out how this would have happened. The other three are perfectly fine, and the other front side, routed similarly, could not rub on anything to cause abrasion if I tried.
Anyway, I cancelled my alignment, cancelled plans to corner balance, and in light of the SPC debate am swapping to J's S1 joints. I like the design better, and now prefer to spend the additional amount to avoid the possibility of having to re-align the car at a later date if the SPC is declared illegal.
Important Part
What this means is that I will be installing the OEM upper ball joints, but still have my SPC joints installed. This is an ideal test case for measuring whatever you all would like me to in measuring whether the roll center geometry is changed by the SPC joint. I'm not a roll center expert -- I know what it is, but am not an engineer like the seeming majority of you all. Let me know what to measure and I can take pics and/or video (that is if you all even want to know, of course).
OK guys and teddy bears, my 100 mile / six day old Moton Clubsports had a ruptured reservoir line. PITA. Perhaps that explains the handling... Not sure if it was bad from factory or not -- I looked everything over prior to installation, but did not scrutinize every inch. It was the front passenger's side, and it was neither loose or tight nor attached at the point it ruptured. It was just inside the splash shield and just above the swaybar. Nothing to rub on -- I cannot figure out how this would have happened. The other three are perfectly fine, and the other front side, routed similarly, could not rub on anything to cause abrasion if I tried.
Anyway, I cancelled my alignment, cancelled plans to corner balance, and in light of the SPC debate am swapping to J's S1 joints. I like the design better, and now prefer to spend the additional amount to avoid the possibility of having to re-align the car at a later date if the SPC is declared illegal.
Important Part
What this means is that I will be installing the OEM upper ball joints, but still have my SPC joints installed. This is an ideal test case for measuring whatever you all would like me to in measuring whether the roll center geometry is changed by the SPC joint. I'm not a roll center expert -- I know what it is, but am not an engineer like the seeming majority of you all. Let me know what to measure and I can take pics and/or video (that is if you all even want to know, of course).
02-03-2012, 05:12 AM
#179
The only thing to measure is the location of the center of the ball joint relative to the final resting spot inside the knuckle. That will be difficult to measure.
Put the OE and SPC next to each other and take a pic. I would bet $10,000 that they are legal.
Put the OE and SPC next to each other and take a pic. I would bet $10,000 that they are legal.