Skip Barber (Laguna Seca)
07-06-2009, 09:33 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by DER MotorSports,Jul 6 2009, 05:24 AM
Billy makes a very valid point here. Just like in university, one will get out what they put in to racing school or even HPDEs with an instructor of any merit and giving a damn (unfortunately rare in HPDEs). If one is there simply to continue on with the same bad habits they arrived with, it WILL be immediately apparent and the instructors won't waste their time other than the obligatory one time advice to do things properly. Assuming one will only hurt his own progress and not destroy the car or crash another student, they will be left to flounder. I am often told by "graduates" of some of these less serious "competition" schools that they didn't learn a damn thing and the instructors seemed of no more skill than the students, or at least them! Surely, on the rare occassion, there may be a student with more talent and skill than the instructors BUT I can assure you its a rarity AND even then the racecraft that could be gleaned is there.
My advice in any schooling environment where there are multiple instructors working with multiple students is to try to pick a mentor. Find the one with whom you feel most comfortable and attempt to work with them as closely as possible. If you are really bold, simply ask them if they will try to work with you closely so you will have a single point of contact and not be getting contradictory advice. Simply by openly expressing a willingness to learn to one of the instructors and demonstrating a willingness to actually attempt what is being conveyed (more than once and giving up) will go a long long way to getting the instructors to single you out and provide extra attention. In every case where I have attended a comp school this strategy has played dividends in getting more than I paid for and not just a sign-off. Further, when teaching, I actively look for these students as the best usage of my time. Why put a lot of effort into a person who just wants to circulate and then get a certificate when there are a few rare guys actually thirsty to improve? Kids in university, this applies there too.
My advice in any schooling environment where there are multiple instructors working with multiple students is to try to pick a mentor. Find the one with whom you feel most comfortable and attempt to work with them as closely as possible. If you are really bold, simply ask them if they will try to work with you closely so you will have a single point of contact and not be getting contradictory advice. Simply by openly expressing a willingness to learn to one of the instructors and demonstrating a willingness to actually attempt what is being conveyed (more than once and giving up) will go a long long way to getting the instructors to single you out and provide extra attention. In every case where I have attended a comp school this strategy has played dividends in getting more than I paid for and not just a sign-off. Further, when teaching, I actively look for these students as the best usage of my time. Why put a lot of effort into a person who just wants to circulate and then get a certificate when there are a few rare guys actually thirsty to improve? Kids in university, this applies there too.
You never stop learning, even if its from someone who is not as fast as you. I learn all the time from everyone (whether to implement it or not) but it's rare to be faster than someone on EVERY corner of a given track. Even if you are, it dosn't mean you still cant learn from different driving techniques or lines.
The minute you turn your brain off to new ideas and stop learning is the minute you state your own limitations.
07-06-2009, 09:58 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by directportjuicedS2k,Jul 6 2009, 08:13 AM
skip barber goes to the spa i work at, hes an awesome guy.
07-06-2009, 02:05 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by mikegarrison,Jul 6 2009, 09:58 AM
No offense, but I'm not going to pay several thousand dollars for a race school just because the owner is an awesome guy.
07-06-2009, 07:36 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by DER MotorSports,Jul 6 2009, 05:24 AM
If one is there simply to continue on with the same bad habits they arrived with, it WILL be immediately apparent and the instructors won't waste their time other than the obligatory one time advice to do things properly. Assuming one will only hurt his own progress and not destroy the car or crash another student, they will be left to flounder.
I imagine that you'd get a lot more feedback if you took the school in an MX-5 and had your instructor ride shotgun with you rather than driving the single-seater formula cars like I did.
07-06-2009, 08:28 PM
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They don't ride in the car with the students, even in the MX-5 cars.
That said, I asked a couple of very specific questions, making it clear that I felt I was struggling with a particular turn at Laguna Seca, and asked that someone look closely at what I was doing.
They devoted a good part of a session watching me do that turn; I was impressed with their willingness to work with students.
That said, I asked a couple of very specific questions, making it clear that I felt I was struggling with a particular turn at Laguna Seca, and asked that someone look closely at what I was doing.
They devoted a good part of a session watching me do that turn; I was impressed with their willingness to work with students.
07-07-2009, 05:40 AM
#28
Registered User
Originally Posted by 124Spider,Jul 6 2009, 09:28 PM
That said, I asked a couple of very specific questions, making it clear that I felt I was struggling with a particular turn at Laguna Seca, and asked that someone look closely at what I was doing.
They devoted a good part of a session watching me do that turn; I was impressed with their willingness to work with students.
They devoted a good part of a session watching me do that turn; I was impressed with their willingness to work with students.
Judging what a driver is doing by watching the car from outside is a rather different skill than instructing from inside the car. I have lots of experience with the latter, and have only tried the former a few times, with limited success.
It's easiest to instruct the low intermediate drivers, IMO. They already know enough so that you don't have to try and teach them the real basic things like braking before downshifting, but they make obvious enough mistakes that any hack instructor can spot a few to work on.
Instructing drivers that are as good or better than you is a highly specialized skill. Very few people can do it well, but those people are gold.
It's like writing -- even the best writers can benefit from having a great editor. And great editors are not always great writers. But great writers are also rarely great editors.
Driving and instructing driving are two different, but related, skills.
07-07-2009, 07:44 AM
#29
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Yeah, there's no question a competent instructor in the car is going to be more helpful for more things than one following behind, and it's harder and harder to get a coach who'll help as you improve your own skills.
That said, I suspect that the OP and his wife are in a perfect place along the learning curve to benefit from the Skippy instructors; they've autocrossed a bunch, so they have some at-least-decent car control skills, but haven't done a lot of road course time, so they should be, as you put it, at a low-intermediate level.
I think that one skill which really separates newbs from solid intermediate drivers is the ability to do relatively seamless heel/toe downshifts. Working on this on the street is a very good way to get some comfort with it, but it's different on the street, where the downshift won't be bringing you to the higher end of the rev band. A school that includes some real heel/toe instruction and practice is very helpful for those who haven't yet mastered that.
At the Skippy advanced racing school (two day) my brother and I did, they did this in a way that was not tedious for me, and was helpful for those who didn't know how to do it well--they set up a small, kart-type course in a parking lot, which required several downshifts to get through a little 45-second "lap." They were able to watch and listen carefully to make sure that the downshifts were smooth, and not over-revving the motors. For me, it was just fun to get the flavor of the cars on street tires, and for my brother, it was a very good opportunity to get hundreds of heel/toe downshifts in in a short time.
This was just one example of what I found to be a very well-designed curriculum, intended to be useful for those at the lower end of the learning curve, while not being tedious for those who already have mastered that skill. This was my first Skip Barber experience, and I was impressed at their ability to work effectively with a very disparate group.
I would encourage anyone contemplating any of these high-end courses (Skippy; Bondurant; whoever) to talk at length with the sales people (and anyone else they can) to get a good idea of the curriculum, and to whom that course is aimed. In particular, I would want to make sure that the course didn't include great amounts of wasted time for my skills, whatever those may be.
That said, I suspect that the OP and his wife are in a perfect place along the learning curve to benefit from the Skippy instructors; they've autocrossed a bunch, so they have some at-least-decent car control skills, but haven't done a lot of road course time, so they should be, as you put it, at a low-intermediate level.
I think that one skill which really separates newbs from solid intermediate drivers is the ability to do relatively seamless heel/toe downshifts. Working on this on the street is a very good way to get some comfort with it, but it's different on the street, where the downshift won't be bringing you to the higher end of the rev band. A school that includes some real heel/toe instruction and practice is very helpful for those who haven't yet mastered that.
At the Skippy advanced racing school (two day) my brother and I did, they did this in a way that was not tedious for me, and was helpful for those who didn't know how to do it well--they set up a small, kart-type course in a parking lot, which required several downshifts to get through a little 45-second "lap." They were able to watch and listen carefully to make sure that the downshifts were smooth, and not over-revving the motors. For me, it was just fun to get the flavor of the cars on street tires, and for my brother, it was a very good opportunity to get hundreds of heel/toe downshifts in in a short time.
This was just one example of what I found to be a very well-designed curriculum, intended to be useful for those at the lower end of the learning curve, while not being tedious for those who already have mastered that skill. This was my first Skip Barber experience, and I was impressed at their ability to work effectively with a very disparate group.
I would encourage anyone contemplating any of these high-end courses (Skippy; Bondurant; whoever) to talk at length with the sales people (and anyone else they can) to get a good idea of the curriculum, and to whom that course is aimed. In particular, I would want to make sure that the course didn't include great amounts of wasted time for my skills, whatever those may be.
07-09-2009, 10:13 AM
#30
Registered User
Interesting read, but I think there is a major point being missed here.
I am an HPDE instructor now, even a pretty good one based on the surveys and more importantly on the progress my students have made over the sessions. However, the instructors I had when I went to Skip Barber were on a completely different level. We're talking like me being a star player in my local rec softball league versus a major league baseball player/coach (ok...maybe minor league, none of them drove F1
)
All of the instructors had a lot of experience in professional wheel to wheel racing. They gave better instruction from standing on a hill overlooking a few corners than I could ever give sitting inside the car. At the time I went, being much less experienced than I am now, they even knew what I was doing inside the car better than I did.
The Skip Barber 3-Day school is definitely geared towards intermediate drivers, which I would define as someone who has done a few a track days or a bunch of autocross and is looking to make the transition to full-sized tracks. A person who has never been on a track or competed in autocross would be better off starting out with some seat time in one of those cheaper arenas. On the opposite end, a person who has years worth of HPDE will be bored with the exercises they do on the first couple of days. These people would get more benefit out of the 2-day advanced school if they can get in, or possibly another organization that starts at a higher level.
The important point of this post though is that you get what you pay for with the instructors. Those guys are good and if you sign up for the class at the appropriate skill level you will have the potential to learn a lot more than at any EVO school or HPDE.
I am an HPDE instructor now, even a pretty good one based on the surveys and more importantly on the progress my students have made over the sessions. However, the instructors I had when I went to Skip Barber were on a completely different level. We're talking like me being a star player in my local rec softball league versus a major league baseball player/coach (ok...maybe minor league, none of them drove F1
)All of the instructors had a lot of experience in professional wheel to wheel racing. They gave better instruction from standing on a hill overlooking a few corners than I could ever give sitting inside the car. At the time I went, being much less experienced than I am now, they even knew what I was doing inside the car better than I did.
The Skip Barber 3-Day school is definitely geared towards intermediate drivers, which I would define as someone who has done a few a track days or a bunch of autocross and is looking to make the transition to full-sized tracks. A person who has never been on a track or competed in autocross would be better off starting out with some seat time in one of those cheaper arenas. On the opposite end, a person who has years worth of HPDE will be bored with the exercises they do on the first couple of days. These people would get more benefit out of the 2-day advanced school if they can get in, or possibly another organization that starts at a higher level.
The important point of this post though is that you get what you pay for with the instructors. Those guys are good and if you sign up for the class at the appropriate skill level you will have the potential to learn a lot more than at any EVO school or HPDE.
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