RS-3 vs Z1SS vs 595 RS-R vs RE-11 vs Z2 vs Rivals
10-16-2013, 05:19 PM
#371
Can anyone who has run both comment on RE11A vs Z2 in the wet? We will be racing lemons at sonoma in december and that changed our tire plans from 2 sets of RS3's (with their new 200 utog stamp) to 1 set of RS3's and one set of something that wont kill us if the sky decided to open up.
10-16-2013, 05:31 PM
#372
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I'm not doubting but intrigued by the issues folks had with Rivals at Lincoln. My local site is rougher but highly grippy concrete. The Rivals were awesome but wore quickly and needed heat management. I skipped Nat's this year but would have thought they suited that site. It's always hard to say the impact of when you run during a given day, the conditions, how bad the OPR/expansion joint crap is, but when it comes down to it, the times on the clock rule the day. I'm not thrilled with the Z2 after having those for 4 events. I can adjust driving and the car but they still lack the ultimate grip. Hard to think RS3's are the real answer given they need co-drivers and really warm conditions to be confidence inspiring at 3 run day events.
10-16-2013, 06:05 PM
#373
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RS3s don't need heat to generate high grip quite to the extent that some people think they do. Even in 60 degree ambient temps, they come in for us about halfway through the first run for first driver, on a fairly slick surface (FedEx Field, if you've done the DC Pro before). And we're not currently on a setup that lends itself to heating them up very quickly.
Data would do wonders for a lot of people. The person with the most runs per year of anyone I know autocrossing, and a now multi-time National Champion, does not spray R1Rs. Even in 90 degree heat at Lincoln. A lot of folks are moving towards not spraying A6s, and they aren't folks losing, either. A change in feel does not necessarily mean a change in grip.
Ryan: Depends upon *how* wet you mean. The Z2s would be recommendation for "possibly wet, but might dry out during this stint", because they won't fall off in the dry nearly as much as my other recommendations would (DWs, Michelin PSS). For a deluge, the DWs are easy mode. We haven't tested the PSS.
Data would do wonders for a lot of people. The person with the most runs per year of anyone I know autocrossing, and a now multi-time National Champion, does not spray R1Rs. Even in 90 degree heat at Lincoln. A lot of folks are moving towards not spraying A6s, and they aren't folks losing, either. A change in feel does not necessarily mean a change in grip.
Ryan: Depends upon *how* wet you mean. The Z2s would be recommendation for "possibly wet, but might dry out during this stint", because they won't fall off in the dry nearly as much as my other recommendations would (DWs, Michelin PSS). For a deluge, the DWs are easy mode. We haven't tested the PSS.
10-16-2013, 06:24 PM
#374
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Originally Posted by aeonracer' timestamp='1381930883' post='22830239
Eh, I look every now and the at the names. I'm not saying I am going to be a top driver at SCCA events, but many names cross over between CDC and SCCA, and I'm not far off the pace of some of the faster folks at the SCCA events that also participate in CDC. I may try a few SCCA events next year, and fully expect to be upper mid pack.
Moral of the story, RE-11a isn't a terrible tire. To me it also comes down to what the driver likes / feels the most comfortable pushing. I tried the RE-11a's, and don't have bad things to say.
Moral of the story, RE-11a isn't a terrible tire. To me it also comes down to what the driver likes / feels the most comfortable pushing. I tried the RE-11a's, and don't have bad things to say.
To your latter: It's not terrible. There are a lot worse out there, and it's probably one of the better all-duty tires for the car (If I daily drove an autocross car, and didn't want to own more than one set of tires or care about competitiveness, I'd buy them). But at nearly the same cost, you're giving up quite a bit to the RS3 and Z2. And the poster was interested how they stacked up against Z2s, so I gave a validated & tested opinion.
I wish I'd known you liked them so much, I was trying desperately to sell the ones we had that we'd run only test events on for $300. Took almost 3 months to sell. 100 street miles and ~20runs.
If you ever want to try a set of other tires, we've got RS3s, Z2s (for events we don't care about), DWs (for wets), and will be testing Toyo R1Rs early next year, along with two (hopefully we'll find some cheap 17x8s or 8.5s to put the wets on permanently in addition) sets of 17x9s ET63 wheels. Maybe an additional set of wheels so we don't have to deal with mounting / unmounting tires constantly.
Kamil, come out to FedEx next year and play with the big boys. It's a completely different game, and the competition is great. If you're looking for benchmarks, I've finished pretty consistently around Jerry Byrd (black STI) and Howard Leikin's (red Exige) times at CDC events.
10-16-2013, 06:27 PM
#375
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Ryan -- what works in Lincoln may not work elsewhere. At Nat's, the time break between runs if you have a co-driver is probably on the order of 8-10 minutes with a co-driver and 16-20 minutes without. So if you have a tire like the R1R or the Dunlop Z2 which comes to temp very early and does not need sustained internal heat to operate even if it is early in the run day. They can thrive whereas RS3's need more heat to be fully effective. Can they be effective at 60 degrees, marginally, but they are not the same as when it's 80 or 90 degrees which is the norm in early September in Lincoln.
At a local or regional event where the time between runs may be appreciably less especially during the heat of the summer, R1R's will flat out melt off the rim without spraying especially if you are co-driving. With 16 minutes of down time, maybe spraying would not be needed but to say that applies across the board would be not be correct.
At a local or regional event where the time between runs may be appreciably less especially during the heat of the summer, R1R's will flat out melt off the rim without spraying especially if you are co-driving. With 16 minutes of down time, maybe spraying would not be needed but to say that applies across the board would be not be correct.
10-16-2013, 07:57 PM
#376
Ryan: Depends upon *how* wet you mean. The Z2s would be recommendation for "possibly wet, but might dry out during this stint", because they won't fall off in the dry nearly as much as my other recommendations would (DWs, Michelin PSS). For a deluge, the DWs are easy mode. We haven't tested the PSS.
10-17-2013, 06:09 AM
#377
Can anyone who has run both comment on RE11A vs Z2 in the wet? We will be racing lemons at sonoma in december and that changed our tire plans from 2 sets of RS3's (with their new 200 utog stamp) to 1 set of RS3's and one set of something that wont kill us if the sky decided to open up.
10-17-2013, 08:05 AM
#378
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Originally Posted by RyanDavies' timestamp='1381938518' post='22830452
[quote name='aeonracer' timestamp='1381930883' post='22830239']
Eh, I look every now and the at the names. I'm not saying I am going to be a top driver at SCCA events, but many names cross over between CDC and SCCA, and I'm not far off the pace of some of the faster folks at the SCCA events that also participate in CDC. I may try a few SCCA events next year, and fully expect to be upper mid pack.
Moral of the story, RE-11a isn't a terrible tire. To me it also comes down to what the driver likes / feels the most comfortable pushing. I tried the RE-11a's, and don't have bad things to say.
Eh, I look every now and the at the names. I'm not saying I am going to be a top driver at SCCA events, but many names cross over between CDC and SCCA, and I'm not far off the pace of some of the faster folks at the SCCA events that also participate in CDC. I may try a few SCCA events next year, and fully expect to be upper mid pack.
Moral of the story, RE-11a isn't a terrible tire. To me it also comes down to what the driver likes / feels the most comfortable pushing. I tried the RE-11a's, and don't have bad things to say.
To your latter: It's not terrible. There are a lot worse out there, and it's probably one of the better all-duty tires for the car (If I daily drove an autocross car, and didn't want to own more than one set of tires or care about competitiveness, I'd buy them). But at nearly the same cost, you're giving up quite a bit to the RS3 and Z2. And the poster was interested how they stacked up against Z2s, so I gave a validated & tested opinion.
I wish I'd known you liked them so much, I was trying desperately to sell the ones we had that we'd run only test events on for $300. Took almost 3 months to sell. 100 street miles and ~20runs.
If you ever want to try a set of other tires, we've got RS3s, Z2s (for events we don't care about), DWs (for wets), and will be testing Toyo R1Rs early next year, along with two (hopefully we'll find some cheap 17x8s or 8.5s to put the wets on permanently in addition) sets of 17x9s ET63 wheels. Maybe an additional set of wheels so we don't have to deal with mounting / unmounting tires constantly.
Kamil, come out to FedEx next year and play with the big boys. It's a completely different game, and the competition is great. If you're looking for benchmarks, I've finished pretty consistently around Jerry Byrd (black STI) and Howard Leikin's (red Exige) times at CDC events.
[/quote]
No worries! I figured once I looked at my data and realized we were only pulling 1.1Gs peak (and not sustaining it there at all) there was an issue with the tires (the sustaining that peak admittedly falls to setup, but i think you're at least heading in the right direction now.)
. I was a brake lockup away from taking top index time in the afternoon last weekend in Andy's car, which was only frustrating because the weekend I drove your car, not being able to find 2nd gear on my last run cost me 1.4 seconds by the second corner....Spoiled by S2000 ABS, I guess . I think there are a lot of ways to skin the cat. The more I think about it, I think your problem isn't necessarily spring rate up front as it is total roll rate. I think I could set up your car with *way* less front roll bias to handle pretty close to what you'd want it to. But find yourself an AP1 or an Eibach front bar 
. We may actually migrate in the direction of a quite a bit stiffer with less bar, but with us going to AP2 rear suspension next year, and different shocks, I'm not really apt to make a ton of changes all at once and chase our tails all year. Then put a diff in it and start over. Goal for 2014 is make the AP2 handle like our AP1 .Geoff: I agree Lincoln is wildly different than most places. I don't really care how our car does at locals, and with that said, it's not like Toyos have issues at warm ProSolos, which is where you'd run into the biggest issue with them. I'm sure Whitener has used data, not feel, to back his decisions. Which is ultimately what people need to do.
I'd agree the RE-11A is probably better than the Z2 in *wet* conditions, but the conditions where I'd consider running an 11A would have to be wet enough that I'd want to be on true wets. The Z2 will be much better in the dry, and in semi-wet they'd run similarly, so like I said, if there's a chance of it drying out during the stint, and it's not a hurricane, go out on Z2s (unshaved).
11-22-2013, 12:59 PM
#380
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