Q: for people that have gone fast with a big rear wing
11-22-2002, 11:49 PM
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Q: for people that have gone fast with a big rear wing
This may draw all the wrong crowd, but here goes...
I've been considering putting a wing on the back of the car for track events. Every design I've seen so far just bolts to the top of the trunklid. Now, as silly as some wing designs are, a few of them look like they could actually work. And by work I mean push down on the car - say a big one can provide 50 lbs. of downforce at 60mph, that's 200 pounds @120 (all else equal). It's an awful lot of weight being distributed over not too much area on the trunklid, and transfered to the car only through 4 rubber snubs and the latch mechanism.
So does it booger things up? I'm not about to go jump up and down on my car to find out. A couple of the rubber thingies are over the rear light housings that look like they could be fragile. Those of you that have seen speeds in excess of 110, preferably on multiple occasions or for extended periods, lend me your stories!
Make/model/trim of wing, perceived benefit, and any side effects you've noticed.
I'm planning on building my own wing, and this information will help me decide whether to base it on the trunklid or trunk floor.
Muchos gracias!
I've been considering putting a wing on the back of the car for track events. Every design I've seen so far just bolts to the top of the trunklid. Now, as silly as some wing designs are, a few of them look like they could actually work. And by work I mean push down on the car - say a big one can provide 50 lbs. of downforce at 60mph, that's 200 pounds @120 (all else equal). It's an awful lot of weight being distributed over not too much area on the trunklid, and transfered to the car only through 4 rubber snubs and the latch mechanism.
So does it booger things up? I'm not about to go jump up and down on my car to find out. A couple of the rubber thingies are over the rear light housings that look like they could be fragile. Those of you that have seen speeds in excess of 110, preferably on multiple occasions or for extended periods, lend me your stories!
Make/model/trim of wing, perceived benefit, and any side effects you've noticed.I'm planning on building my own wing, and this information will help me decide whether to base it on the trunklid or trunk floor.
Muchos gracias!
11-23-2002, 05:07 AM
#2
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I'd be real concerned about how to set it up for best operation. That will depend on the track since each one has different speeds. You'd need instrumented testing to determine what angle of attack would be optimal for that track by measuring G loads, speed through the various corners, top speeds at the end of the various straights, etc., etc. Getting the forces properly transferred from the wing to the body would only be the first step.
If I were to go with a wing, I think I'd start with the Mugen since it has half a chance of being properly engineered for force distribution as well as being designed specifically for the S (taking into consideration aerodynamics and how to optimize them for the specific car as opposed to some dumb-ass wing that was designed to look "good" (I haven't seen one yet that did - YMMV). Since it's more of an aerodynamic aid (mounts as a lip on the rear), there's no adjustment (could be good or bad) and the forces would be widely distributed.
I'd like to see some real documentation on how these boy-racer wings perform. My strong suspicion is that they hurt more than help...
If I were to go with a wing, I think I'd start with the Mugen since it has half a chance of being properly engineered for force distribution as well as being designed specifically for the S (taking into consideration aerodynamics and how to optimize them for the specific car as opposed to some dumb-ass wing that was designed to look "good" (I haven't seen one yet that did - YMMV). Since it's more of an aerodynamic aid (mounts as a lip on the rear), there's no adjustment (could be good or bad) and the forces would be widely distributed.
I'd like to see some real documentation on how these boy-racer wings perform. My strong suspicion is that they hurt more than help...
11-23-2002, 07:45 AM
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I don't think the wing's mounts take all of the load. A change in airflow should redistribute load all across the top surface of the car. Also you may want to consider a front air dam or whatever for balance. And consider a simple spoiler too - it can be effective if designed correctly. Milliken and Milliken's RCVD book discusses a lot of this stuff.
11-23-2002, 08:13 AM
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The load on a specfic area is measured in pounds per square foot. The largest contributing factor in determining the "pressure" as you call it on the hood is the distance between the mounts. For example, if the mounts are 24" apart, you're talking about spreading your "120 lbs" of downforce across a 4 ft^2 region of your trunk's surface area. This is by no means a over loading of the trunk.You're only talking about 30 lbs/ft^2. And how much time are you actually going to spend at that speed? I have had a Veilside wing on my car (No I don't know the pitch or have any technical data with regards to downforce) and been in excess of 160 mph with no resultant damage to my trunk. In all honesty I don't think you're putting your car into any danger by mounting a wing. Keep in mind that this is just mu opinion though.
11-23-2002, 08:19 AM
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Jason,
I think your concern is valid. We've been looking at doing a rear spoiler on my car, and mounting directly to the trunk lid w/o reinforcement looks questionable. Maybe not the first event, or the second event, but eventually the aero loading will probably cause some fatigue cracking.
The biggest issue appears to be making sure that you don't create any bending load on the trunk skin, so you've got to make sure your mounting struts are perpendicular. The solution we've looked at involves developing some mounting plates inside the trunk lid to tie into the more substantial structure there (and a couple other tweaks). Trunklid should still be functional though. PM me if you'd like to discuss more.
UL
I think your concern is valid. We've been looking at doing a rear spoiler on my car, and mounting directly to the trunk lid w/o reinforcement looks questionable. Maybe not the first event, or the second event, but eventually the aero loading will probably cause some fatigue cracking.
The biggest issue appears to be making sure that you don't create any bending load on the trunk skin, so you've got to make sure your mounting struts are perpendicular. The solution we've looked at involves developing some mounting plates inside the trunk lid to tie into the more substantial structure there (and a couple other tweaks). Trunklid should still be functional though. PM me if you'd like to discuss more.
UL
11-23-2002, 08:34 AM
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Way back when at the old Upper Marlboro track just outside of Wash., DC, there was a guy who had a demountable "wing" that he had on a Vette.
He had it attached to his roll bar but canted forward so it was approximately amidships. I never knew if it did anything positive and nobody else ever used any kind of a wing at all in those days.
He had it attached to his roll bar but canted forward so it was approximately amidships. I never knew if it did anything positive and nobody else ever used any kind of a wing at all in those days.
11-23-2002, 09:10 AM
#7
Also have to keep in mind that drag often comes with the downforce. I thought about the Mugen unit but concluded that it might be a slight negative on the long straight, no factor on many turns, and an aid on maybe a few turns on most courses I visit. Would like to hear feedback of actual/perceived results from those that use one.
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11-23-2002, 01:53 PM
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Great responses so far, thanks everyone. I've thought many of the same things, here's some more fuel for discussion:
jguerdat:
Yes, you're right, that proper setup of such a device would require detailed testing, with instruments beyond the reach of most mortals. That's just something I accept as a backyard hack. The hope is that with enough design work, the initial attempt will be good enough to have a net positive effect. Then that with fairly consistent driving and knowledge enough to compensate for other variables (tire condition, environment, etc.), adjustments made to the wing can be properly evaluated, with lap times and corner exit speeds being the useful input.
I agree, too, that a known-good item is a good place to start, so Mugen were the first people I contacted in my research. Coincidentally this was about 2 days after I found myself facing perpendicular to the direction of motion, at about 115mph, in turn 8 at Willow Springs. My email to King: [QUOTE]Hello,
jguerdat:
Yes, you're right, that proper setup of such a device would require detailed testing, with instruments beyond the reach of most mortals. That's just something I accept as a backyard hack. The hope is that with enough design work, the initial attempt will be good enough to have a net positive effect. Then that with fairly consistent driving and knowledge enough to compensate for other variables (tire condition, environment, etc.), adjustments made to the wing can be properly evaluated, with lap times and corner exit speeds being the useful input.
I agree, too, that a known-good item is a good place to start, so Mugen were the first people I contacted in my research. Coincidentally this was about 2 days after I found myself facing perpendicular to the direction of motion, at about 115mph, in turn 8 at Willow Springs. My email to King: [QUOTE]Hello,
11-23-2002, 07:41 PM
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Here is a wing i just picked up. I m still waiting to get it fitted on my car (hopefully monday)
The posts are available in three different heights 5 inch, 7 inch, and 10 inch. It is also available in two widths, 55 in, and 59 in. The angle of the wing has 3 levels of adjustment. Also, there are two different mounting point on the wing itself, one with the posts pretty far apart, and one with them almost at the edges. Its made of all carbon fiber so its extremely light.
I first noticed this style of GT wing in JGTC racing. I started noticing that a lot of new designs are using the center channel.
JZR, you have seen my buddies turbo miata at a few autox this year. Its the one with the homemade splitters and rear diffusser. Also has a huge GT wing. He is also a big fan of these for the track.
JSP Wing
The posts are available in three different heights 5 inch, 7 inch, and 10 inch. It is also available in two widths, 55 in, and 59 in. The angle of the wing has 3 levels of adjustment. Also, there are two different mounting point on the wing itself, one with the posts pretty far apart, and one with them almost at the edges. Its made of all carbon fiber so its extremely light.
I first noticed this style of GT wing in JGTC racing. I started noticing that a lot of new designs are using the center channel.
JZR, you have seen my buddies turbo miata at a few autox this year. Its the one with the homemade splitters and rear diffusser. Also has a huge GT wing. He is also a big fan of these for the track.
JSP Wing
11-24-2002, 01:14 AM
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Not too bad looking a piece, I guess...I'd like to see it a bit higher than 10" off the deck, with larger end plates. Just what is Super Carbon, anyway? Let us know how it works out...will you be at the Dec. 13 event at the Streets of Willow? How's the price compare to the $1200 Mugen? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical, but when the company also builds this:
I get a bit concerned...
Some alternatives I've been looking at:
http://www.hpmotorsport.com/wings.htm
http://www.smart-racing.com/ProdCat/Wings/Wings.htm
But crap they're expensive!
