124Spider

Gee, I'm trying not to get too sarcastic, but I certainly have said quite plainly that I have not timed myself, so I really don't understand why you would ask, except to be obnoxious, and I don't see what you expect to accomplish by being obnoxious.

I don't need a clock to know that I've improved; a clock would tell me how much faster my lap times are, on those occasions when I actually get a clean lap. In the meantime, I know, with absolute certainty, that on my fifth track day (Monday):

--I hit my lines correctly much more consistently than I did on my first day (duh!)

--I hit the apexes much more consistently than I did on my first day (duh!)

--I'm driving 20mph faster by the end of the front straight than I did on my first day

--I'm taking turn 1 at full throttle, which took until my fifth track day (Monday)

--I'm taking turn 2 five to ten mph faster than I did my first several track days

--I'm taking turns 3a and 3b five to ten mph faster than I did on my first several track days

--I'm taking turns 5a, 5b and 6 five to ten mph faster than I did on my first several track days

--My entry speed to the front straight is now ten to 15 mph faster than it was last year

--My entry speed and exit speed from all significant turns are both faster than they were last year

--My speed on all straights is faster than it was last year.

--I've learned a lot of track markers, so I rely much less on the cones.

Now, you don't have to be a math major (although I was) to know that that adds up to (a) much _better_ driving, and (b) significantly faster lap times.

Some day, I'll be interested in just how fast I'm going, but it has not been very important to me so far, for very good reasons.

I'm glad some of you have found timing to be useful; it is not necessary at the early stages of learning to drive well on a track to have a timer in order to improve dramatically.

Doug Hayashi

I'm not trying to be too critical, but you'll take your eyes off the track at every turn checking for MPH/RPMs but you won't put a Hot Lap Timer on so you can check laptimes down the straightaway? And won't use an AMB so you can check laptimes after the session? I mean, it is good that you are checking MPH in turns, but I would consider that more advanced than a typical new guy at the track.

You've been to five track days and you are giving advice? Maybe that is part of our disconnect?

-Doug

Different techniques for different folks, I guess

124Spider

Yup.

I am in a much better position, I think, to know what's going though the head of a newbie than someone who has been doing this for years. I have no doubt that, if it's not part of a school, carefully introduced and used, a timer being used by a newbie on his own has a significant possibility of causing that newbie to push too hard, too soon, because he's intent on driving faster, rather than driving better (which is the real tool needed in order to drive faster). That's especially true, I think, of younger drivers, who sometimes can get caught up in informal "racing" with each other in lapping days--a slower driver trying to save face by keeping up with a faster one, and spinning out. I've seen that, and I'm sure you have, too.

The fact that you are a veteran and I'm a newbie does not decrease the validity of my opinion on what might well make a newbie's experience more dangerous than it needs to be, and may well make that opinion more valid than that of a veteran.

Noticing entry and exit speeds is no big deal with a car with such an easy speed readout, and, besides, I still do have to look to make sure that I'm not downshifting too soon (thereby over-revving).

I'm not sure why this became such a heated discussion. I have the distinct impression that timing is forbidden at our local track (insurance requirement, as previously noted, presumably because the insurance company also is of the opinion that timing adds to the risk). In any event, it is not part of any of the five schools I've attended, with two different sponsors. So, any timing is done outside of the aegis of the school, and its instructors. To me, a newbie timing himself is not getting information which is particularly useful (as Mike explained earlier), and some portion of them will be tempted to push harder than they should because of the timer, so I think it's a bad idea. You certainly are entitled to hold a different opinion. OTOH, timing as part of a school, in which an instructor is in the car, and it is emphasized that the timer is for information, not to encourage the newbie driver to drive faster, seems perfectly ok to me--not necessary, but perhaps useful.

Raymund

I think timing should be used when allowed or possible because, simply put, it's like a compass. It points everyone in the right direction- even for a 1st timer. If it's a matter of safety, I don't think slapping timing on a 1st timer will add anymore potential risk in safety and if so its just speculation. My first timed event was at the drag strip. Surely, I don't think timing a 1/4 mile added any more danger as my intention was the same with or without the time slip. However, with timing, I was able to distinguish which shiftpoint and launch technique resulted in improvements. Another involvement in timing and my first time at the autox I was able use the time slip to compare and improve my times and learn why screeching the tires too much doesn't do jack. I'm sure some 'hot-shoe-driver' told me before hand that overdriving the tires and coming in too hot will kill your times but it just doesn't soak in as well as that time slip. Since a race track is pretty much a glorified drag strip with some autox thrown in, I'm sure even 1st timers can learn from timing.

FYI, there were 50 s2k at last Sunday's s2ki event and roughly half of the 2 beginner groups opted to rent timing. As far as I recall no one group had any more mishaps than the other.

krazik

[QUOTE=124Spider,Mar 10 2005, 09:56 PM] Nonsense!

krazik

Actually, yes it does do exactly that.

"The fact you're the professor and I'm the student means that I know the right answer"

I'll take the opinon of those w/ experience.

124Spider

Golly, you're a pleasant guy! It's very impressive how many ways, and times, you can call me an idiot without ever responding to my specific point that an individual newbie, using a timer by himself without it being part of a program, runs an increased risk of running into trouble. I have agreed time after time that using it, if done correctly, as part of the curriculum is fine.

The professor has no idea what's going on in the mind of a freshman; that's one reason why the graduate student often is a better teacher for the lower-level courses, and the upper classman is a better tutor.

You categorically deny that using a timer, for anyone, at any time, under any circumstances, can be dangerous. That's nonsense.

124Spider

So now you deny that someone, in his first five HPDEs, can tell with absolute certainty, that he has improved markedly, unless that driver has been timing his laps from the start?

Now that's impressive nonsense.

Only a person determined to stir the pot (or one desperately trying to "prove" that his is the _only_ way) would try to compare the obvious ways any intelligent driver can tell he is improving in his first five HPDEs with an absurd statement such as a statement that sparkplug wires provide noticeably more power.

There's nothing wrong with timing, as part of the curriculum; however, contrary to what you seem to be insisting, for some unknown reason, only a remarkably close-minded person thinks it's the only way.

msm_s2k

Without a doubt the best metric -- and the only absolute one -- is lap times. It's fine that the approach your taking is working for you.

Your position that lap timing is not a metric that track nubs should use is absurd IMO. Is it the only way? Krazik never said that. I did. My point is that it is the ONLY absolute quantitative metric of improvement.

This debate reminds me of the good ol' butt dyno. My son bought a bunch of parts for his Evo. He'd read on the Evo forums about how this part and that part were worth 20 to 30 WHP. He spent the money. And was wonderfully happy about the results. Went on and on about how much faster the turbo spooled, how much better the car pulled all the way through to redline. I drove the car and couldn't tell the difference. He was of course certain.

I paid for the dyno. Results? He lost 4 WHP and due to the mis-match in parts his max boost had dropped from 19 / 20 PSI to 15.

That's the problem with subjective metrics. They're not worthless. Looking at your corner speed ... that's a good metric but only for that corner and a bit advanced for most track nubs not to mention a whole lot more dangerous than a lap timer IMO.

rlaifatt

I agree with that last point. Looking at the speedo is dangerous in my mind. I never understood it when people would ask me what my corner entry speed was, or track out speed, or speed at the end of the straightaway (which is where you are setting up for the next turn), because I generally don't know as those are the worse places to take your eyes off the track. Any time spent looking at the speedo is time not spent looking through the corner, or what's around you, or checking your mirrors, track surface etc. Besides, it can only slow you down too. It's much better and safer to focus on driving and then, after the session or lap, check your time. Can you imagine Schumacher looking at his speedo as he is approaching a chicane, esp. if there are other cars around him?
If you are watching the speedo as a newbie you are only developing a bad habit.