Offs, Curbs, and You(r suspension components)
05-07-2015, 11:25 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Offs, Curbs, and You(r suspension components)
The S2000 is in the shop for trouble-shooting alignment limitations (among other suspension work).
My list of bent components:
I've had three relatively minor offs in 4-5 years:
I do use curbs whenever possible, including occasionally getting into the lumpy concrete centers at Laguna Seca. Plus the usual horrific street potholes and lumpy backroads.
Do I just need to keep it on the blacktop and be more gentle, or get over it and consider these components wear items for a tracked S2000?
My list of bent components:
- LF lower control arm
- RF knuckle
- RR lower control arm
- RR knuckle
I've had three relatively minor offs in 4-5 years:
- straight into dry grass at Sonoma
- straight into dry dirt at Thunderhill
- spun into dry dirt at Buttonwillow
I do use curbs whenever possible, including occasionally getting into the lumpy concrete centers at Laguna Seca. Plus the usual horrific street potholes and lumpy backroads.
Do I just need to keep it on the blacktop and be more gentle, or get over it and consider these components wear items for a tracked S2000?
05-07-2015, 12:08 PM
#2
Any pics of the alignement specs before you started replacing parts? I went off at the cyclone at thunder hill, passed up someone on the way up the hill and didn't take it wide enough understeered and went up and over the hill pretty hard with no suspension damage or alignment changes. I checked it at work the next day and it was exactly at the specs I had done before the event. Possibly big pot holes, hitting curbs that could have caused the damage or a bit of both. Usually I am pretty aggressive on the curbs at buttonwillow and at least go off once each event Lol and no damage yet (Knock on would)
05-07-2015, 05:18 PM
#3
I've seen a lot of s2ks go off at a lot of tracks, and aside from contact, the only collateral damage I've ever seen has been the alignment. These cars are tanks.
Are you certain these bends weren't from an incident prior to your ownership?
Are you certain these bends weren't from an incident prior to your ownership?
05-07-2015, 05:32 PM
#5
I would bet those big red cubs at LS are the culprit. I did a Skippy school there once and I guy had to buy a new suspension as he ripped one apart at T6. Those mothers deserve respect! I have also found that apex/exit curbing and hard transitions seem to loosen my adjustable sway bar links from time to time, so I am in the habit of checking them before all outings now.
05-07-2015, 05:44 PM
#6
My son got hit on the track at the right rear and that bent the RR lower control arm and the RR spindle. Wasn't a big hit, just enough to spin the car. Was able to adjust the toe and camber to finish the weekend. I use the curbs at NJ Thunderbolt and Watkins Glen and have not bent any components yet. My car had stock control arm bushings until this year.
What are you using for springs and bushings? Spherical control arm bushings and stiff springs will make it more likely to bend components.
What are you using for springs and bushings? Spherical control arm bushings and stiff springs will make it more likely to bend components.
05-07-2015, 07:17 PM
#7
A note: things bend elastically all the time...as long as the stress is below the yield point they return to the original position. That is how springs work.
For something to be 'bent' means some force went beyond the yield point. If the suspension is working that should only occur when something is hit. It can also happen when the suspension reaches the limit of its travel.
Did you hit something hard...a pothole, etc...that caused the suspension to bottom?
There is another thread where a spring may have entered coil bind. Some springs use thicker wire and more revolutions resulting in less travel Eibach vs Hypercoil or Swift for example. Some track cars, especially with significant aero aids. And regardless of that, many S2000s have very short front springs. I think that may be an upper control arm interference issue. But the result is the same: less spring travel. If the spring hit coil bind it would be the same as bottoming.
Some of this might be guessed at by how the components were bent. Was it vertically with the part bent up or horizontally with the part bent back?
For something to be 'bent' means some force went beyond the yield point. If the suspension is working that should only occur when something is hit. It can also happen when the suspension reaches the limit of its travel.
Did you hit something hard...a pothole, etc...that caused the suspension to bottom?
There is another thread where a spring may have entered coil bind. Some springs use thicker wire and more revolutions resulting in less travel Eibach vs Hypercoil or Swift for example. Some track cars, especially with significant aero aids. And regardless of that, many S2000s have very short front springs. I think that may be an upper control arm interference issue. But the result is the same: less spring travel. If the spring hit coil bind it would be the same as bottoming.
Some of this might be guessed at by how the components were bent. Was it vertically with the part bent up or horizontally with the part bent back?
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05-08-2015, 09:37 AM
#8
Thread Starter
Over time I have used 12k/10k and 10k/12k spring combos. Mostly Swift, so reduced binding. I did get feedback from the person who bought my old shocks that they had wonky dyno curves and were in various states of needing rebuilds so there may have been some weird spikes in the forces on the arms and knuckles.
Wheels have been either stock AP2 or TRC3 9"+62.
I'm sure I have bottomed a number of times over the years. My commute road is a goat path that overheats the shocks on my Accord every day (washboards, potholes, big lumps). I know the RR components have relatively new damage as I was only able to get -1.2 camber on the last alignment and previously I could get -2.2 or more.
I did buy used from a dealer, so who knows about prior owner. This is the first time I've had the car corner-balanced and really gone over with a fine-tooth comb beyond just hitting some target alignment spec. The car did take a LF hit in my ownership, but every single LF suspension component was replaced with new OEM (along with the subframe to play it safe) and was verified good at that time. So the LF LCA has actually bent AGAIN since then!
Prior to this week, the RR was limited to just -1.2 camber. LF was showing too much willingness to caster (8.0+ if I remember correctly), and RF was limited to -3.0 camber (with offset camber RCAs installed). Very much looking forward to getting everything sorted out so I can focus on my crappy driving.
Perhaps I should consider a Ford Raptor.
Wheels have been either stock AP2 or TRC3 9"+62.
I'm sure I have bottomed a number of times over the years. My commute road is a goat path that overheats the shocks on my Accord every day (washboards, potholes, big lumps). I know the RR components have relatively new damage as I was only able to get -1.2 camber on the last alignment and previously I could get -2.2 or more.
I did buy used from a dealer, so who knows about prior owner. This is the first time I've had the car corner-balanced and really gone over with a fine-tooth comb beyond just hitting some target alignment spec. The car did take a LF hit in my ownership, but every single LF suspension component was replaced with new OEM (along with the subframe to play it safe) and was verified good at that time. So the LF LCA has actually bent AGAIN since then!
Prior to this week, the RR was limited to just -1.2 camber. LF was showing too much willingness to caster (8.0+ if I remember correctly), and RF was limited to -3.0 camber (with offset camber RCAs installed). Very much looking forward to getting everything sorted out so I can focus on my crappy driving.
Perhaps I should consider a Ford Raptor.
05-08-2015, 10:29 AM
#10
The alignment issue is more likely to be where the mounting points are rather than the links themselves. In the front, there is a subframe that sometimes shifts; not enough to be out of stock settings, but enough to be uneven when you are trying for numbers beyond -1.5° camber.
Most good body shops, especially ones that are used by MB, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. dealers, will have extremely accurate frame measuring equipment. I was the shop I use (used to be the shop for the local MB dealer) and he was repairing a car that been repaired on the cheap. A $10+k repair. They had taken short cuts which covered over but didn't repair frame issues in the crash. In my early days we raced Pintos. We had a parts sponsorship from a Ford dealer and my teammate got a new quarter panel, and gave it to a friend who worked a body shop to install. A few months later the left rear wheel rim let go entering the downhill at Lime Rock and he had a bit of a ride (but it stayed on its wheels!). The quarter panel had a big crack in an inch thick chunk of bondo...how his 'friend' had done the repair. I'm guessing he sold the quarter panel.
This is what makes racing street cars so problematic. And these are minor crashes. If you stuffed it hard in guardrail or rolled it the car could be scrap. In contrast, a the entire tube frame of a stock car (I believe in SCCA GTU) is around $3000 (plus shipping). A front clip is around $500 (not including the tube part above it which is fabricated on the fly). A complete Five Star body with windows is under $3000, although ARCA bodies are over $7000. Weight? Typically 3000# with driver, on 10" rims, 13" tires, V8, and quick change rear. Safer. More easily repaired, Easier to work on. No weird compromises turning a street car into a race car. And probably faster on most tracks.
You should never bottom. That's what bump stops are for. It is unlikely you will find a balance between an aero enhanced track car with stiff springs and reduced ride height and a road with washboards, potholes, etc. For that road you minimally need something close to stock ride height and a spring/shock package that won't bottom. The stock Ohlins DFV may be close.
But here it seems you should call your local MB, BMW, Porsche, etc dealers, find out what body shops they use, call, find one with computerized frame measuring equipment (http://www.chiefautomotive.com/measuring-tools/) and get the frame straight. Everything else follows from that unless you are racing LeMons.
Most good body shops, especially ones that are used by MB, BMW, Audi, Bentley, Aston Martin, Porsche, etc. dealers, will have extremely accurate frame measuring equipment. I was the shop I use (used to be the shop for the local MB dealer) and he was repairing a car that been repaired on the cheap. A $10+k repair. They had taken short cuts which covered over but didn't repair frame issues in the crash. In my early days we raced Pintos. We had a parts sponsorship from a Ford dealer and my teammate got a new quarter panel, and gave it to a friend who worked a body shop to install. A few months later the left rear wheel rim let go entering the downhill at Lime Rock and he had a bit of a ride (but it stayed on its wheels!). The quarter panel had a big crack in an inch thick chunk of bondo...how his 'friend' had done the repair. I'm guessing he sold the quarter panel.
This is what makes racing street cars so problematic. And these are minor crashes. If you stuffed it hard in guardrail or rolled it the car could be scrap. In contrast, a the entire tube frame of a stock car (I believe in SCCA GTU) is around $3000 (plus shipping). A front clip is around $500 (not including the tube part above it which is fabricated on the fly). A complete Five Star body with windows is under $3000, although ARCA bodies are over $7000. Weight? Typically 3000# with driver, on 10" rims, 13" tires, V8, and quick change rear. Safer. More easily repaired, Easier to work on. No weird compromises turning a street car into a race car. And probably faster on most tracks.
You should never bottom. That's what bump stops are for. It is unlikely you will find a balance between an aero enhanced track car with stiff springs and reduced ride height and a road with washboards, potholes, etc. For that road you minimally need something close to stock ride height and a spring/shock package that won't bottom. The stock Ohlins DFV may be close.
But here it seems you should call your local MB, BMW, Porsche, etc dealers, find out what body shops they use, call, find one with computerized frame measuring equipment (http://www.chiefautomotive.com/measuring-tools/) and get the frame straight. Everything else follows from that unless you are racing LeMons.