how do you save a slide?
12-20-2004, 10:52 PM
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how do you save a slide?
Hi all,
The last time I tracked, I spun twice and each time was because the rear slid out during trailbraking. I know that it is better to not go into a turn too hot but if the rear starts to slide out, do you let off on the brake more and even give it some gas or will that make it worse and cause you to spin. I know that if more brake is applied during the turn it will make the car spin. Is there a way to save a slide or do you just hang on and hope nobody hits you. TIA, bill
The last time I tracked, I spun twice and each time was because the rear slid out during trailbraking. I know that it is better to not go into a turn too hot but if the rear starts to slide out, do you let off on the brake more and even give it some gas or will that make it worse and cause you to spin. I know that if more brake is applied during the turn it will make the car spin. Is there a way to save a slide or do you just hang on and hope nobody hits you. TIA, bill
12-21-2004, 02:17 AM
#2
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One thing that I seem to have a very hard time actually doing is to make sure the rear wheels are only trying to regain their lateral grip. To do this you need to make sure they're not being asked to (de)accelerate. Either maintain power so that ther'es no change in speed being requested or push the clutch in so they're just free-wheeling.
For some reason, if this happens to me autocrossing and I'm not ready for it, I just lift off the gas. Now engine compression is trying to slow the tires down, making them lose grip even more...
For some reason, if this happens to me autocrossing and I'm not ready for it, I just lift off the gas. Now engine compression is trying to slow the tires down, making them lose grip even more...
12-21-2004, 06:24 AM
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It's better to learn how to threshold brake in a straight line, then start trailbraking.
If you're going in too hot, you have 2 choices:
1) Get off the brakes and pray you make it through. This works if you're almost slowed down enough. You might get lucky and find out you can take the corner faster than you thought.
2) Unwind the wheel a bit. This will cause you to miss the corner and may even cause you to leave the track if you're going too fast.
Neither one is fast, so it is better, safer and easier to approach the limit from below, rather than above.
If you're going in too hot, you have 2 choices:
1) Get off the brakes and pray you make it through. This works if you're almost slowed down enough. You might get lucky and find out you can take the corner faster than you thought.
2) Unwind the wheel a bit. This will cause you to miss the corner and may even cause you to leave the track if you're going too fast.
Neither one is fast, so it is better, safer and easier to approach the limit from below, rather than above.
12-21-2004, 07:34 AM
#4
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yeah brake in a straight line until you learn better car control. Trailbraking is an advanced technique.
you should be off the brakes before you turn the wheel. if you're spinning the car you aren't trailbraking right. Trail braking means you trail your foot off your brakes as you turn. If you're spining you're braking way too hard while turning the wheel.
how long have you been tracking? I'd get more track days and auto-x's to learn car control before you try something as advanced as trail braking.
you should be off the brakes before you turn the wheel. if you're spinning the car you aren't trailbraking right. Trail braking means you trail your foot off your brakes as you turn. If you're spining you're braking way too hard while turning the wheel.
how long have you been tracking? I'd get more track days and auto-x's to learn car control before you try something as advanced as trail braking.
12-21-2004, 07:35 AM
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Unless you're just barely over the edge, you're probably going to have to lift off the brake some. If you're barely over the edge, it may be sufficient to just unwind the wheel or counter-steer a bit.
Basically, your tire only has a set amount of grip. If you're asking it to do too much, then it's going to exceed that amount of grip and start to skid in some direction (either forwards when you're braking too hard, or "backwards" when you're doing a burnout, or to the side when you exceed its cornering force).
The amount of grip that a tire has is also influenced by the amount of weight on it. The more weight on the tire, generally, the more grip it will have.
So, when you are trail-braking through a corner, you are asking the rear tires to do 2 things: 1) Help decelerate the car and 2) Help turn the car. And since the car is decelerating, the weight is transfered to the front, so there is less weight on the rear which results in the tire having less overall grip than it would in more of a steady-state corner.
Now, when the rear tires break loose, that means that you are asking it to do too much with the amount of grip that it has. So, here are some options:
1) Decrease the amount of braking slightly. This has 2 effects: a) it transfers some weight back to the rear tires, which will increase their effective grip, and b) it decreases the amount of grip used for deceleration and allows that grip to be used for cornering. This may be enough to allow the rear tires to regain traction... but they may still not have enough traction to make the corner.
2) Decrease the amount of steering and/or counter-steer. This has the effect of allowing the tire to need less cornering grip, but you can still have some grip available for deceleration. Still, you may not make the corner, but at least you'll be going slower when you go off. With any luck, you'll be able to go off straight, so you will have full use of the car's braking abilities to slow you down as quickly as possible, now that you're off-course.
Most likely, the best recovery action will be some combination of the two. Sometimes, it may not be sufficient to just lift off the brakes a bit, and it may be necessary to get back into the throttle a bit (just enough that you're not "engine braking"). This effectively means that the tires will not be required to do any accelleration/decelleration, and can use 100% of their grip for cornering force, and hopefully will regain traction and tuck back in line.
Once the tires regain traction, you're problem is going to be "fishtailing". You have to counter-correct fast enough that the tail doesn't whip back around to the other side. That tends to be the hardest part of the recover for me to master.
And, then there are the cases where you just can't recover. Try to get the car as straight as you can before you go off, and once you're off the track, try to make sure you don't come back across the track in front of traffic.
Basically, your tire only has a set amount of grip. If you're asking it to do too much, then it's going to exceed that amount of grip and start to skid in some direction (either forwards when you're braking too hard, or "backwards" when you're doing a burnout, or to the side when you exceed its cornering force).
The amount of grip that a tire has is also influenced by the amount of weight on it. The more weight on the tire, generally, the more grip it will have.
So, when you are trail-braking through a corner, you are asking the rear tires to do 2 things: 1) Help decelerate the car and 2) Help turn the car. And since the car is decelerating, the weight is transfered to the front, so there is less weight on the rear which results in the tire having less overall grip than it would in more of a steady-state corner.
Now, when the rear tires break loose, that means that you are asking it to do too much with the amount of grip that it has. So, here are some options:
1) Decrease the amount of braking slightly. This has 2 effects: a) it transfers some weight back to the rear tires, which will increase their effective grip, and b) it decreases the amount of grip used for deceleration and allows that grip to be used for cornering. This may be enough to allow the rear tires to regain traction... but they may still not have enough traction to make the corner.
2) Decrease the amount of steering and/or counter-steer. This has the effect of allowing the tire to need less cornering grip, but you can still have some grip available for deceleration. Still, you may not make the corner, but at least you'll be going slower when you go off. With any luck, you'll be able to go off straight, so you will have full use of the car's braking abilities to slow you down as quickly as possible, now that you're off-course.
Most likely, the best recovery action will be some combination of the two. Sometimes, it may not be sufficient to just lift off the brakes a bit, and it may be necessary to get back into the throttle a bit (just enough that you're not "engine braking"). This effectively means that the tires will not be required to do any accelleration/decelleration, and can use 100% of their grip for cornering force, and hopefully will regain traction and tuck back in line.
Once the tires regain traction, you're problem is going to be "fishtailing". You have to counter-correct fast enough that the tail doesn't whip back around to the other side. That tends to be the hardest part of the recover for me to master.
And, then there are the cases where you just can't recover. Try to get the car as straight as you can before you go off, and once you're off the track, try to make sure you don't come back across the track in front of traffic.
12-21-2004, 08:13 AM
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As long as we're talking about what to do once you've spun, I'll chime in again, since I'm a self-proclaimed expert in spinning. 
When you spin, immediately push the clutch all the way in and get on the brakes, but not enough to lock the tires. As soon as the tires lock, you'll shoot off the track in whatever direction you were last travelling due to inertia. I personally try to wait until the car is pointed in a direction I don't mind going and is headed in that direction, then I brake for all I'm worth. ABS doesn't do a damned thing when you're sliding sideways. This method helped me survive (never even left the track) a double-180 at ~100 right next to the wall at Thunderhill, but YMMV.
When you spin, immediately push the clutch all the way in and get on the brakes, but not enough to lock the tires. As soon as the tires lock, you'll shoot off the track in whatever direction you were last travelling due to inertia. I personally try to wait until the car is pointed in a direction I don't mind going and is headed in that direction, then I brake for all I'm worth. ABS doesn't do a damned thing when you're sliding sideways. This method helped me survive (never even left the track) a double-180 at ~100 right next to the wall at Thunderhill, but YMMV.
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12-21-2004, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by payneinthe,Dec 21 2004, 09:13 AM
As long as we're talking about what to do once you've spun, I'll chime in again, since I'm a self-proclaimed expert in spinning.
The SoCal autocrossers can verify that I spent a good deal of time this spring with this very subject. How did I resolve my problem? I learned to brake in a straight line and gently accelerate through the corner. This gentle acceleration shifts weight to the rear tires, generally making the car more stable. The same amount of gentle deceleration (as in trail braking) is shifting weight forward, making the car less stable.
How to spin in a straight line: countersteer as the slide starts. When its obviously gone, clutch in and moderate braking while increasing the countersteer. Start releasing the brake to allow the car to rotate (if necessary, inertia may do this for you.) As the car is nearing completion of a 360 spin, straighten the wheel and drop it into the appropriate gear. Release brake and clutch and drive away.
I've successfully done that 4 times this year, including once in T4 at Portland International.
Andy H.
12-21-2004, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by shaggy,Dec 21 2004, 05:14 PM
I thought I was the expert in spinning! How did I have my powers usurped?
