High Performance Driver Education Safety Poll
09-03-2004, 10:38 AM
#11
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16 # of DAYS spent at HPDE events (not racing, not auto-x)
1 # of off-track-excursions with no damage
0 # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
1 # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
That 1 excursion with major damage was covered by my insurance co. $23K damage to repair the car. I still have a sore neck from that accident and accompanying headaches. It happened in May of this year.
That one incident was entirely my fault -- I was driving too hard in the rain and hyroplaned in standing water.
In my experience, you have a great deal of control over whether you have any serious incidents. All you have to do is keep control of the red mist.
It is true that you could end up getting a ride home. Or even an ambulance ride home. But that's true driving to the grocery store, too. Even with the crash, I thing the HPDEs have improved my street skills so much that on the whole it has been a safety increase.
1 # of off-track-excursions with no damage
0 # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
1 # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
That 1 excursion with major damage was covered by my insurance co. $23K damage to repair the car. I still have a sore neck from that accident and accompanying headaches. It happened in May of this year.
That one incident was entirely my fault -- I was driving too hard in the rain and hyroplaned in standing water.
In my experience, you have a great deal of control over whether you have any serious incidents. All you have to do is keep control of the red mist.
It is true that you could end up getting a ride home. Or even an ambulance ride home. But that's true driving to the grocery store, too. Even with the crash, I thing the HPDEs have improved my street skills so much that on the whole it has been a safety increase.
09-03-2004, 12:49 PM
#12
10 HPDEs, NO off-track, NO damage, 1 spin.
The spin was intentionally pushing it in the rain on a very safe section of track.
I'm as fast on-track as any of the Pac-NW drivers on this board. It's all about assesing risks and keeping your driving within your skill level.
I strongly second jzr's advice to do a few autocrosses. You can learn alot about car control at the limit on an autox coarse where the consequences of a spin are minimal. That control carries over onto the track. I didn't push the limits of the car on the track until I had the confidence that I could handle it when I stepped over the limit. That confidence came from autoxing.
I'm a wuss in the rain, too much risk.
- Michael
(I'll probably back it into a tire wall on my next day out)
The spin was intentionally pushing it in the rain on a very safe section of track.
I'm as fast on-track as any of the Pac-NW drivers on this board. It's all about assesing risks and keeping your driving within your skill level.
I strongly second jzr's advice to do a few autocrosses. You can learn alot about car control at the limit on an autox coarse where the consequences of a spin are minimal. That control carries over onto the track. I didn't push the limits of the car on the track until I had the confidence that I could handle it when I stepped over the limit. That confidence came from autoxing.
I'm a wuss in the rain, too much risk.
- Michael
(I'll probably back it into a tire wall on my next day out)
09-03-2004, 01:28 PM
#13
Registered User
7 DAYS spent at HPDE events (not racing, not auto-x)
1* off-track-excursions with no damage
0 off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
0 off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
* Off track - Picked up a flat in the right rear and spun picking up the throttle on exit of a lefthander. Went quite aways
and ended off track facing traffic. First HPDE, 3rd session!
Someone rolled the day before! This was at Bridgehampton before it closed and you can roll pretty easily in the soft sand there.
I've had a few instances where I feel the very forgiving nature of the car (E36 M3) bailed me out from a severe lack of talent, but you don't have an option for that.
HPDE's (just my opinion) are relatively safe - but you are driving aggessively at high speeds - even the pros spin AND wreck on occasion during practice. While a HPDE is a 'safe' learning environment, anytime you begin to push a car up around it's limits, you run some risk. That said, I don't think a novice, in a well run school, i.e. with a good instructor in the car with them, should get to the point of wrecking thier car.
OTOH, I know someone who's since stopped instructing, and one of the things he said was he'd been in a few too many situations with Aryton Senna wannabees, so....
1* off-track-excursions with no damage
0 off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
0 off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
* Off track - Picked up a flat in the right rear and spun picking up the throttle on exit of a lefthander. Went quite aways
and ended off track facing traffic. First HPDE, 3rd session!Someone rolled the day before! This was at Bridgehampton before it closed and you can roll pretty easily in the soft sand there.
I've had a few instances where I feel the very forgiving nature of the car (E36 M3) bailed me out from a severe lack of talent, but you don't have an option for that.
HPDE's (just my opinion) are relatively safe - but you are driving aggessively at high speeds - even the pros spin AND wreck on occasion during practice. While a HPDE is a 'safe' learning environment, anytime you begin to push a car up around it's limits, you run some risk. That said, I don't think a novice, in a well run school, i.e. with a good instructor in the car with them, should get to the point of wrecking thier car.
OTOH, I know someone who's since stopped instructing, and one of the things he said was he'd been in a few too many situations with Aryton Senna wannabees, so....
09-03-2004, 01:49 PM
#14
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I've done about 100 HPDE events, in 4 different cars. I've done damage to my cars probably 3 times in total, and 2 of those times were wheels taking out fender liners or fenders because I tried to stuff too big of tires on them.
If you don't drive like ass, it's really hard to ball up a car.
If you don't drive like ass, it's really hard to ball up a car.
09-03-2004, 01:51 PM
#15
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Ah, Charlottesville is one of my favorite cities....
Anyway, my 20 year old son and I recently took a high performance driver education course. They were very explicit ahead of time on how to avoid going off the track, and what to do if you do (bring it to a controlled stop; don't try to drive immediately back on the track). Neither of us left the track, although my son went sideways a couple of times, with no damage. Several of the students did leave the track, but there was no damage other than a great deal of dust thrown up.
I also did a whole day of lapping a few weeks later (11 days ago). I drove about 110 laps at Pacific Raceways, and did not leave the track, but I went sideways once at around 70. I didn't stall, and just turned back and continued on my way. A few people left the track a few times, but, to my knowledge, there was no damage. There were 24 drivers on the track that day.
There's no question that there is risk, both at the driver school and at open lapping later on. There are things within your control you can do to limit the risk, but it is an inherently risky activity, compared to driving to work (going around curves at 125mph is a little different from the normal street around my house). Done right, it's not nearly as risky as racing, but it is quite easy to lose control at these speeds and on these curves.
--Mark
Anyway, my 20 year old son and I recently took a high performance driver education course. They were very explicit ahead of time on how to avoid going off the track, and what to do if you do (bring it to a controlled stop; don't try to drive immediately back on the track). Neither of us left the track, although my son went sideways a couple of times, with no damage. Several of the students did leave the track, but there was no damage other than a great deal of dust thrown up.
I also did a whole day of lapping a few weeks later (11 days ago). I drove about 110 laps at Pacific Raceways, and did not leave the track, but I went sideways once at around 70. I didn't stall, and just turned back and continued on my way. A few people left the track a few times, but, to my knowledge, there was no damage. There were 24 drivers on the track that day.
There's no question that there is risk, both at the driver school and at open lapping later on. There are things within your control you can do to limit the risk, but it is an inherently risky activity, compared to driving to work (going around curves at 125mph is a little different from the normal street around my house). Done right, it's not nearly as risky as racing, but it is quite easy to lose control at these speeds and on these curves.
--Mark
09-03-2004, 04:13 PM
#16
7 HPDE days with this car, 2 in the rain
No OTE's
A few slides and saves,
Over 20 Motorcycle track days
1 OTE, spun the rear and lowsided, A few hundred getting a Computrack Bike check out. Some cosmetic damage, didn't bother to fix, messed up my leathers.
Just drive within your limits and carefully and gradually push them higher.
George
No OTE's
A few slides and saves,
Over 20 Motorcycle track days
1 OTE, spun the rear and lowsided, A few hundred getting a Computrack Bike check out. Some cosmetic damage, didn't bother to fix, messed up my leathers.
Just drive within your limits and carefully and gradually push them higher.
George
09-03-2004, 04:41 PM
#17
Registered User
I'll add some words of general experience. They come more from my experience with mountain sports (climbing, skiing, etc.) but seem to be true of driving as well.
In sports that involve a lot of danger, there are two times of extreme risk. The first happens only once -- when you are a novice. There are many, many ways to screw up badly simply because you don't know enough, and novices have collectively managed to find almost all of them. Good instruction and personal intelligence is the best cure. It is also important to take it very easy, even though that will slow down your rate of growth. Again,seek good advice from instructors and mentors about how fast you should be pushing yourself.
The other time of extreme risk happens when you first push into expert situations. The problem is, you have to be an expert to survive them, but the only way to become an expert is to go through them. The step from high-intermediate to expert is often a diving board, with no way back. And worse yet, this applies to any type of expertise. For instance, you can move into that expert realm with one car, but still be only high intermediate with a different type of car. Or expert in the dry but only high intermediate in the wet. The more things you are really an expert at, the easier it is to survive going into new expert terrain. But also, the easier it is to become overconfident. So this is a danger that the high intermediate to expert level person faces over and over again.
In between, in the experienced novice, low intermediate, and high intermediate levels, things are usually relatively safe. You know enough not to make the stupid mistakes, and you aren't pushing yourself hard enough to get into the situations where only the experts dare tread. The goal should be to get through the novice stage into this golden realm, then acquire enough experience to decide for yourself whether you want to continue into the expert stage. Sometimes "other sports beckon", and there is no shame to that.
In sports that involve a lot of danger, there are two times of extreme risk. The first happens only once -- when you are a novice. There are many, many ways to screw up badly simply because you don't know enough, and novices have collectively managed to find almost all of them. Good instruction and personal intelligence is the best cure. It is also important to take it very easy, even though that will slow down your rate of growth. Again,seek good advice from instructors and mentors about how fast you should be pushing yourself.
The other time of extreme risk happens when you first push into expert situations. The problem is, you have to be an expert to survive them, but the only way to become an expert is to go through them. The step from high-intermediate to expert is often a diving board, with no way back. And worse yet, this applies to any type of expertise. For instance, you can move into that expert realm with one car, but still be only high intermediate with a different type of car. Or expert in the dry but only high intermediate in the wet. The more things you are really an expert at, the easier it is to survive going into new expert terrain. But also, the easier it is to become overconfident. So this is a danger that the high intermediate to expert level person faces over and over again.
In between, in the experienced novice, low intermediate, and high intermediate levels, things are usually relatively safe. You know enough not to make the stupid mistakes, and you aren't pushing yourself hard enough to get into the situations where only the experts dare tread. The goal should be to get through the novice stage into this golden realm, then acquire enough experience to decide for yourself whether you want to continue into the expert stage. Sometimes "other sports beckon", and there is no shame to that.
09-03-2004, 05:12 PM
#18
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9 # of DAYS spent at HPDE events (not racing, not auto-x)
2 # of off-track-excursions with no damage (2 small paint chips)
0 # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
0 # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
I've spun out a few times, but never was I or the car in any real danger.
I haven't seen many S2ks leave on a hook or flatbed, but we do lose 1-2 cars, of some make per event, usually due to MAJOR driver error. (doing something they knew better than to do) Both DavePk's and Krazik's S2000s lost hubs mid-lap on separate occasions, but normal humans don't put 10" slicks on an S2k. I wouldn't worry about your hubs
I don't think I've ever seen damage of more than a couple thousand. (check that... one totaled car, but it was an idiot in a Civic who did exactly what he was told NOT to do)
Most of the really bad stuff I've seen has been on weekend canyon or mountain runs. I've seen a number of S2000s totaled on those.
My point... If you stay within your limits, you're much safer on the track than the street.
At an HPDE, (one that's properly run. Like the Speedventures event I was at today.) every driver knows the rules and is given the basics, at least, of how to behave on a track. As a result, collisions are extremely rare. This is why I think an HPDE is the safest place to test/improve your skills and enjoy your S.
Get out there and have some fun!!!
2 # of off-track-excursions with no damage (2 small paint chips)
0 # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
0 # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
I've spun out a few times, but never was I or the car in any real danger.
I haven't seen many S2ks leave on a hook or flatbed, but we do lose 1-2 cars, of some make per event, usually due to MAJOR driver error. (doing something they knew better than to do) Both DavePk's and Krazik's S2000s lost hubs mid-lap on separate occasions, but normal humans don't put 10" slicks on an S2k. I wouldn't worry about your hubs
I don't think I've ever seen damage of more than a couple thousand. (check that... one totaled car, but it was an idiot in a Civic who did exactly what he was told NOT to do)
Most of the really bad stuff I've seen has been on weekend canyon or mountain runs. I've seen a number of S2000s totaled on those.
My point... If you stay within your limits, you're much safer on the track than the street.
At an HPDE, (one that's properly run. Like the Speedventures event I was at today.) every driver knows the rules and is given the basics, at least, of how to behave on a track. As a result, collisions are extremely rare. This is why I think an HPDE is the safest place to test/improve your skills and enjoy your S.
Get out there and have some fun!!!
09-03-2004, 06:51 PM
#19
Registered User
35 = # of DAYS spent at HPDE events
3 = # of off-track-excursions with no damage
0 = # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 = # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
1 = # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
The no damage incidents were all due to driver error induced oversteer.
The severe accident was the result of a mechanical failure resulting in a sideways impact with a cement wall and the total loss of the car. I had moderate soft tissue damage to my shoulder and arm that was fully resolved after a couple of months.
I have seen major damage to many types of vehicles, including an S2000, Boxster, RX-7, BMW and Viper. One car wound up on top of a concrete retailing wall after climbing up the tire wall. Many other incidents resulted in minor damage to vehicles (incidents where the driver could drive the car home). Also, mechanical failures involving brakes, transmissions and engines can put a damper on the experience.
Make no mistake, you are putting stress on you and your car, and exposing yourself to different types of risks than you experience on public roads. However, you are in control of your car and your actions, so how hard you push is up to you (and your instructor).
I still enjoy HPDEs and recommend them to anyone who wants to learn more about the limits of the car and improve their driving skills in a relatively controlled environment.
3 = # of off-track-excursions with no damage
0 = # of off-track-excursions with minor damage (up to $1500)
0 = # of off-track-excursions with moderate damage (up to $10,000)
1 = # of off-track-excursions with severe damage (more than $10,000)
The no damage incidents were all due to driver error induced oversteer.
The severe accident was the result of a mechanical failure resulting in a sideways impact with a cement wall and the total loss of the car. I had moderate soft tissue damage to my shoulder and arm that was fully resolved after a couple of months.
I have seen major damage to many types of vehicles, including an S2000, Boxster, RX-7, BMW and Viper. One car wound up on top of a concrete retailing wall after climbing up the tire wall. Many other incidents resulted in minor damage to vehicles (incidents where the driver could drive the car home). Also, mechanical failures involving brakes, transmissions and engines can put a damper on the experience.
Make no mistake, you are putting stress on you and your car, and exposing yourself to different types of risks than you experience on public roads. However, you are in control of your car and your actions, so how hard you push is up to you (and your instructor).
I still enjoy HPDEs and recommend them to anyone who wants to learn more about the limits of the car and improve their driving skills in a relatively controlled environment.
09-04-2004, 03:59 AM
#20
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A guy just put his E46 M3 on the roof in the sand at the end of the back straight at Mid Ohio when the motor let go. This was 2 weeks ago.
When I was at Mid Ohio in April, a guy put his S2000 into the outside wall in the same braking zone when he put a tire off under braking (looked like just wasn't paying attention to the side of the track with painted lines and wet grass).
Both were quite a bit of damage. If it's your first time, the chance of damage is pretty minimal unless it's raining. A guy I know that's been autocrossing for years in his E36 M3 put his car into the tirewall at the same event (2 weeks ago) in the rain.
Anyway, just take it slow and build up speed. I've probably been to about 15 total days of HPDE at this point and have progressed into NASA HPDE4 TT group with open passing. I must say that it is very fun but requires that every driver be responsible about checking mirrors and making safe passes on track. I think most HPDE mistakes occur once you start to know the track and pushing.
The main area that I'm working on now is filling out the friction circle during the transition from pure braking to pure cornering. I'd say this is the most diffecult part to get comfortable with in your own car since it's easily the biggest chance for you to make a mistake. It's very rare for something to go wrong after you're back on the throttle exiting a corner. From what I've seen, it's usually mistakes entering corners that cause problems.... so if I had to give you a word of advice - that's it.
When I was at Mid Ohio in April, a guy put his S2000 into the outside wall in the same braking zone when he put a tire off under braking (looked like just wasn't paying attention to the side of the track with painted lines and wet grass).
Both were quite a bit of damage. If it's your first time, the chance of damage is pretty minimal unless it's raining. A guy I know that's been autocrossing for years in his E36 M3 put his car into the tirewall at the same event (2 weeks ago) in the rain.
Anyway, just take it slow and build up speed. I've probably been to about 15 total days of HPDE at this point and have progressed into NASA HPDE4 TT group with open passing. I must say that it is very fun but requires that every driver be responsible about checking mirrors and making safe passes on track. I think most HPDE mistakes occur once you start to know the track and pushing.
The main area that I'm working on now is filling out the friction circle during the transition from pure braking to pure cornering. I'd say this is the most diffecult part to get comfortable with in your own car since it's easily the biggest chance for you to make a mistake. It's very rare for something to go wrong after you're back on the throttle exiting a corner. From what I've seen, it's usually mistakes entering corners that cause problems.... so if I had to give you a word of advice - that's it.