Ft. Myers Tour
02-21-2006, 05:50 AM
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Ft. Myers Tour
Congratulations to the s2000 drivers at Ft. Myers. 5 out of the 6 AS Trophies + ASL.
Looks like a mix of Kumho and Hoosiers. Do we know anything more about the tires? (size combinations, condition etc..)
-- Tom
Looks like a mix of Kumho and Hoosiers. Do we know anything more about the tires? (size combinations, condition etc..)
-- Tom
02-21-2006, 07:23 AM
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Who knows what happened on Sunday. I heard that the track was protested as speeds were to high. The protest was upheld and sundays run were thrown out. Ian Stewart was clocked going 85 mph and the rules state the fastest stock cars should not exceed 65 mph. A friend called to tell me this but thats all I heard.
Ken Marion
04 S2000
missed a trophy by .005 seconds
Ken Marion
04 S2000
missed a trophy by .005 seconds
02-21-2006, 08:05 AM
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Jason Collett
Kumho 225/265 combo.
The course was really fast, but did not have any real flare. Slalom out turn around slalom back (both days). the speed really is what made this course enjoyable. I really only hit the brakes one time on each course.
As far as the protest goes, that is up to the SEB and PC to decide. According to the rules, the course was illegal. I would be willing to bet that both courses were illegal. My suggestion would be to revisit the rules and insurance policies that SCCA has in place.
Kumho 225/265 combo.
The course was really fast, but did not have any real flare. Slalom out turn around slalom back (both days). the speed really is what made this course enjoyable. I really only hit the brakes one time on each course.
As far as the protest goes, that is up to the SEB and PC to decide. According to the rules, the course was illegal. I would be willing to bet that both courses were illegal. My suggestion would be to revisit the rules and insurance policies that SCCA has in place.
02-21-2006, 08:21 AM
#5
I run there all the time. I was up there on Saturday. Competition was fiercs, lots of well set up cars.
The track set up looked pretty fast to me. I didn't run it. The surface there is about as sticky as it can get. Locals usually run Hoosiers. I saw lots of both Hoosier and Kuhmos. Coming in the backside you could build lots of speed and at the finish some drivers had trouble slowing down in time to make the exit and got a dnf.
CoralDoc took his first national event trophy in his Spec Miata. Go Joshua.
fltsfshr
The track set up looked pretty fast to me. I didn't run it. The surface there is about as sticky as it can get. Locals usually run Hoosiers. I saw lots of both Hoosier and Kuhmos. Coming in the backside you could build lots of speed and at the finish some drivers had trouble slowing down in time to make the exit and got a dnf.
CoralDoc took his first national event trophy in his Spec Miata. Go Joshua.
fltsfshr
02-21-2006, 08:28 AM
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Good job Ken! Too bad it took me so long to understand this car! I'm getting there... I did turn faster times Sunday, so it's a good sign! 
Keith kicked a$$ but had cone issues! He and that car were made for each other!
I know Ian was flying, but I doubt he was going 85 mph, maybe 75. Fast runs in the S were done in 2nd gear bouncing off the rev limiter forever! So we never saw anything over 60 mph, and you saw what kind of times AS was running.
Oh well, protest or no protest, I enjoyed the courses! To us locals it was nowhere near as fast as the courses there usually are!
And at no time did I feel the course was not safe in any one section!
Keith kicked a$$ but had cone issues! He and that car were made for each other!I know Ian was flying, but I doubt he was going 85 mph, maybe 75. Fast runs in the S were done in 2nd gear bouncing off the rev limiter forever! So we never saw anything over 60 mph, and you saw what kind of times AS was running.
Oh well, protest or no protest, I enjoyed the courses! To us locals it was nowhere near as fast as the courses there usually are!
And at no time did I feel the course was not safe in any one section!
02-21-2006, 04:50 PM
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A Friend of mine e-mailed me these statements from the guy who filed the protest, Robert Carpenter, and the chief of protests, Steve Hoelscher. Pretty interesting stuff. I agree that this track was slower than some of the tracks we run there.
Ken
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:06:19 -0500
From: "Steve Hoelscher" <127dp@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Statement from the Ft. Myers National Tour Chief of Protest
(unofficial)
I was expecting the forums to virtually explode with the typical Monday morning
second guessing, safety stewarding, chief stewarding, finger pointing, blaming,
character assassination, rampant speculation and name calling but this has
gotten completely out of hand. I was the Chief of Protest at the Ft. Myers
National Tour and to set the record straight I believe it now necessary to make
some kind of statement regarding the facts of the protest filed by Robert
Carpenter. This is not an official response from the SCCA or the SEB. I have
no intention of debating, in any of these forums, the Protest Committee's
decision or its merit. The PC's decision stands on its own and is wholly
supported by the facts. Nor will I respond to those who find it necessary to
attack and defame the Protest Committee. Such statements say more about the
author's character than the character of those they are intended to assail.
The purpose here is to provide the solo community with information as to why the
PC took the action it did.
*******
Robert Carpenter was one of several people who approached me Sunday morning
expressing concern regarding the course. I know Robert well and know that he
would much prefer for the competition to be settled on the course not in the
protest shed. Robert raised the issue of a protest and I advised him that
filing a protest would guarantee the course issue be dealt with. Robert
thought it through and filed the protest after he drove in heat one. He was
VERY surprised when I later informed him that the PC had upheld his protest and
that Sunday's times were thrown out. He even stated that he never considered
that the protest would be upheld, let alone that the results would be affected.
In fact, he told me that he "had not intended for this to affect the results and
mess up anyone's event". I commend Robert for having the guts to file the
protest. I have heard a lot of whining over the years but seldom does anyone
ever step up and take the heat for actually taking action.
Once a protest is filed, the Protest Committee must deal with it. The committee
cannot simply sit around and whine and argue on various forums, they must make a
decision and that decision carries with it the responsibility of its effect.
It would have been easy for the PC to dismiss the protest or pass the buck.
However, the protest committee has the responsibility of ensuring the integrity
of the event and protecting the interest of the competitors at the event and the
membership as a whole. This is a big responsibility and one that the PC takes
very seriously. Nor is it an easy job and one that few people will take on
because of the potential for controversy. That the members of the Ft. Myers
National Tour Protest Committee took on this issue knowing their decision would
result in extensive armchair quarterbacking is to be commended.
On the issue of the ruling: The protest committee must first determine
legality. The course was protested under 2.1.A. The protest committee found
the course was in excess of 2.1.A in respect to this sentence: "Turns should not
normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared cars." Members of the
PC spent much of the afternoon observing the competition and monitoring car
speeds through all sections of the course. I also interviewed various
competitors in a variety of stock and street prepared cars as to speed in gears
and speed at rev limits. What the PC determined was that the majority of turns
were taken in excess of 45 mph. In fact, that turns at or below 45 mph were
the exception not the norm. This fact contradicts the quoted statement in
2.1.A. Whether or not a Super Stock GT3 Porsche went 83 mph or 73 mph was never
an issue. The PC must follow the rules and based on our investigation it was
determined that the course was not in compliance with 2.1.A.
Results: The second step in the process is the action taken by the protest
committee once it votes to uphold a protest. Because the course was found to be
in excess of the rules times resulting from said illegal course are
illegitimate. Therefore, the logical course of action was to throw out all
times from that course. Without this action, the final results would have been,
at least in part, determined by times that were illegitimate. Allowing
illegitimate times to stand undermines the credibility of the event. This was
not a decision taken lightly. In fact, during the process of hearing this
protest, the PC adjourned several times for the purpose of investigation, review
and consultation. I personally met with another member of the SEB, Howard
Duncan and (via telephone) SCCA Risk Management. The Committee was well aware
of the impact that its decision would have and anticipated that there would be
considerable public debate among the membership. However, The Committee also
knew that they could not allow their decision to be influenced by the prospect
of such debate.
Timing of the protest: I cannot speak for Robert Carpenter but clearly he did
not anticipate this result. It is also important to note that the protest
committee cannot act proactively. A protest must be filed before it can take
action. Remember that it is the responsibility of the competitors to police
the sport. Not only the legality of competitor's cars but also the courses and
the actions of event officials. When event officials drop the ball it is up to
the competitors to take action. No one wants to be branded a whiner and
therefore most are naturally reluctant to take action. Robert did what he
thought was right; the expected reaction on these forums has proven that axiom
to be true.
The Protest Committee Members: I will not identify the individual members here.
If they want to identify themselves they can do so. I can tell you that, much
to the dismay of its critics, the Ft. Myers National Tour Protest Committee
members had the best interest of the competitors and membership in mind when
they made their ruling. The three members represent nearly 50 years of National
level experience and collectively have more National Championship jackets than
will fit in your closet. Also, they each posted some of the fastest times of
this event. All were chosen for the committee based on their high level of
experience, ability, knowledge and integrity. As a competitor at that event,
you could not have been better represented.
Conclusion: It was anticipated by the Protest Committee that their decision
would be appealed. The SEB acts as the National Appeals Committee and will
therefore have the responsibility of reviewing the ruling on appeal. The
Protest Committee cannot predict the actions of the Appeals Committee but is
confident that whatever action the Appeals Committee takes will best serve the
competitors and membership.
Steve Hoelscher
Chief of Protest, Ft. Myers National Tour
Solo Events Board member
Post by Robert Carpenter, who filed the protest:
Well I guess its my turn to say what I have to say and have that be that.
My name is Robert Carpenter if you don't know who I am by now. I first want
to say thank you to all the people that had nice things to say about me and
my character. Thank you and it makes me feel good to have that many friends.
1. I would do nothing to hurt our sport that I love so much. There are a lot
of great people in our sport that I have respect for and I would like to be
one of those people.
2. I am so sorry to see so many people hurt by my decision to protest
the course. I would not have protested the course if I would have known what
the outcome would have been. It's not fun to be the one people HATE! When
Steve called me after I had started my 800 mile trip home from Ft. Myers, my
mouth just dropped and I thought I would have a wreck on I-75. I WAS VERY
SURPRISED that they decided to drop everybody's time on Sunday. I hope we
can get through this and I will be able to look you in the eye and not be
THAT GUY, MR. DICKHEAD.
3. It's hard to sit and read how people that don't even know me say "he just
protested the course because he did not do that well or to get into the
money". Yes I did have to drive the course to see how fast I thought it is,
but how many people said the courses were the same for Saturday as Sunday?
The Sunday course I had to go to third gear and I did not have to on
Saturday so how are the courses the same speed? I am not the best driver out
there but I do know that Sunday was faster in my car than Saturday. I would
never protest to improve my own position in class and lets take time to look
at this. I was third on Saturday and after not getting a clean run on Sunday
I went to fifth. I cannot talk about someone else but third or fifth it does
not matter to me it is still losing to me. I race for first place.
4. I am the type of person that only wants to give back to the club that has
given me so much. I worked as the chief of impound and that job required me
to work every shift and I want to ask you. How many shifts did you work? I
only say this to let you see what kind of person I am.
5. Something had to happen, because I have been on a national scale for the
last seven years and I have seen courses go from having some fast sections
to this last weekend where every corner was fast except one. This is one of the
hardest things I have ever done, so if you don't agree please read the rules.
We all as competors read the rules as they effect our cars in the classes
that we run, but have you ever taken time to read 2.1 in the rule book? I
was concered that with he speeds we saw on Sunday that people would
take these kinds of course designs home and try to design one on a lot
smaller than the one we saw last Sunday. The course was a safety nightmare and there
were several people that had a hard time stopping at the finish.
In closing please understand I did what I thought I had to do, so if you
want to roast me please know I am the guy with the funny glasses and teeth. I
love this sport and I hope you will except my apology in saying I would do
nothing to hurt your standing in class.You are my family and best
friends.......
Robert Carpenter
Ken
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:06:19 -0500
From: "Steve Hoelscher" <127dp@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Statement from the Ft. Myers National Tour Chief of Protest
(unofficial)
I was expecting the forums to virtually explode with the typical Monday morning
second guessing, safety stewarding, chief stewarding, finger pointing, blaming,
character assassination, rampant speculation and name calling but this has
gotten completely out of hand. I was the Chief of Protest at the Ft. Myers
National Tour and to set the record straight I believe it now necessary to make
some kind of statement regarding the facts of the protest filed by Robert
Carpenter. This is not an official response from the SCCA or the SEB. I have
no intention of debating, in any of these forums, the Protest Committee's
decision or its merit. The PC's decision stands on its own and is wholly
supported by the facts. Nor will I respond to those who find it necessary to
attack and defame the Protest Committee. Such statements say more about the
author's character than the character of those they are intended to assail.
The purpose here is to provide the solo community with information as to why the
PC took the action it did.
*******
Robert Carpenter was one of several people who approached me Sunday morning
expressing concern regarding the course. I know Robert well and know that he
would much prefer for the competition to be settled on the course not in the
protest shed. Robert raised the issue of a protest and I advised him that
filing a protest would guarantee the course issue be dealt with. Robert
thought it through and filed the protest after he drove in heat one. He was
VERY surprised when I later informed him that the PC had upheld his protest and
that Sunday's times were thrown out. He even stated that he never considered
that the protest would be upheld, let alone that the results would be affected.
In fact, he told me that he "had not intended for this to affect the results and
mess up anyone's event". I commend Robert for having the guts to file the
protest. I have heard a lot of whining over the years but seldom does anyone
ever step up and take the heat for actually taking action.
Once a protest is filed, the Protest Committee must deal with it. The committee
cannot simply sit around and whine and argue on various forums, they must make a
decision and that decision carries with it the responsibility of its effect.
It would have been easy for the PC to dismiss the protest or pass the buck.
However, the protest committee has the responsibility of ensuring the integrity
of the event and protecting the interest of the competitors at the event and the
membership as a whole. This is a big responsibility and one that the PC takes
very seriously. Nor is it an easy job and one that few people will take on
because of the potential for controversy. That the members of the Ft. Myers
National Tour Protest Committee took on this issue knowing their decision would
result in extensive armchair quarterbacking is to be commended.
On the issue of the ruling: The protest committee must first determine
legality. The course was protested under 2.1.A. The protest committee found
the course was in excess of 2.1.A in respect to this sentence: "Turns should not
normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared cars." Members of the
PC spent much of the afternoon observing the competition and monitoring car
speeds through all sections of the course. I also interviewed various
competitors in a variety of stock and street prepared cars as to speed in gears
and speed at rev limits. What the PC determined was that the majority of turns
were taken in excess of 45 mph. In fact, that turns at or below 45 mph were
the exception not the norm. This fact contradicts the quoted statement in
2.1.A. Whether or not a Super Stock GT3 Porsche went 83 mph or 73 mph was never
an issue. The PC must follow the rules and based on our investigation it was
determined that the course was not in compliance with 2.1.A.
Results: The second step in the process is the action taken by the protest
committee once it votes to uphold a protest. Because the course was found to be
in excess of the rules times resulting from said illegal course are
illegitimate. Therefore, the logical course of action was to throw out all
times from that course. Without this action, the final results would have been,
at least in part, determined by times that were illegitimate. Allowing
illegitimate times to stand undermines the credibility of the event. This was
not a decision taken lightly. In fact, during the process of hearing this
protest, the PC adjourned several times for the purpose of investigation, review
and consultation. I personally met with another member of the SEB, Howard
Duncan and (via telephone) SCCA Risk Management. The Committee was well aware
of the impact that its decision would have and anticipated that there would be
considerable public debate among the membership. However, The Committee also
knew that they could not allow their decision to be influenced by the prospect
of such debate.
Timing of the protest: I cannot speak for Robert Carpenter but clearly he did
not anticipate this result. It is also important to note that the protest
committee cannot act proactively. A protest must be filed before it can take
action. Remember that it is the responsibility of the competitors to police
the sport. Not only the legality of competitor's cars but also the courses and
the actions of event officials. When event officials drop the ball it is up to
the competitors to take action. No one wants to be branded a whiner and
therefore most are naturally reluctant to take action. Robert did what he
thought was right; the expected reaction on these forums has proven that axiom
to be true.
The Protest Committee Members: I will not identify the individual members here.
If they want to identify themselves they can do so. I can tell you that, much
to the dismay of its critics, the Ft. Myers National Tour Protest Committee
members had the best interest of the competitors and membership in mind when
they made their ruling. The three members represent nearly 50 years of National
level experience and collectively have more National Championship jackets than
will fit in your closet. Also, they each posted some of the fastest times of
this event. All were chosen for the committee based on their high level of
experience, ability, knowledge and integrity. As a competitor at that event,
you could not have been better represented.
Conclusion: It was anticipated by the Protest Committee that their decision
would be appealed. The SEB acts as the National Appeals Committee and will
therefore have the responsibility of reviewing the ruling on appeal. The
Protest Committee cannot predict the actions of the Appeals Committee but is
confident that whatever action the Appeals Committee takes will best serve the
competitors and membership.
Steve Hoelscher
Chief of Protest, Ft. Myers National Tour
Solo Events Board member
Post by Robert Carpenter, who filed the protest:
Well I guess its my turn to say what I have to say and have that be that.
My name is Robert Carpenter if you don't know who I am by now. I first want
to say thank you to all the people that had nice things to say about me and
my character. Thank you and it makes me feel good to have that many friends.
1. I would do nothing to hurt our sport that I love so much. There are a lot
of great people in our sport that I have respect for and I would like to be
one of those people.
2. I am so sorry to see so many people hurt by my decision to protest
the course. I would not have protested the course if I would have known what
the outcome would have been. It's not fun to be the one people HATE! When
Steve called me after I had started my 800 mile trip home from Ft. Myers, my
mouth just dropped and I thought I would have a wreck on I-75. I WAS VERY
SURPRISED that they decided to drop everybody's time on Sunday. I hope we
can get through this and I will be able to look you in the eye and not be
THAT GUY, MR. DICKHEAD.
3. It's hard to sit and read how people that don't even know me say "he just
protested the course because he did not do that well or to get into the
money". Yes I did have to drive the course to see how fast I thought it is,
but how many people said the courses were the same for Saturday as Sunday?
The Sunday course I had to go to third gear and I did not have to on
Saturday so how are the courses the same speed? I am not the best driver out
there but I do know that Sunday was faster in my car than Saturday. I would
never protest to improve my own position in class and lets take time to look
at this. I was third on Saturday and after not getting a clean run on Sunday
I went to fifth. I cannot talk about someone else but third or fifth it does
not matter to me it is still losing to me. I race for first place.
4. I am the type of person that only wants to give back to the club that has
given me so much. I worked as the chief of impound and that job required me
to work every shift and I want to ask you. How many shifts did you work? I
only say this to let you see what kind of person I am.
5. Something had to happen, because I have been on a national scale for the
last seven years and I have seen courses go from having some fast sections
to this last weekend where every corner was fast except one. This is one of the
hardest things I have ever done, so if you don't agree please read the rules.
We all as competors read the rules as they effect our cars in the classes
that we run, but have you ever taken time to read 2.1 in the rule book? I
was concered that with he speeds we saw on Sunday that people would
take these kinds of course designs home and try to design one on a lot
smaller than the one we saw last Sunday. The course was a safety nightmare and there
were several people that had a hard time stopping at the finish.
In closing please understand I did what I thought I had to do, so if you
want to roast me please know I am the guy with the funny glasses and teeth. I
love this sport and I hope you will except my apology in saying I would do
nothing to hurt your standing in class.You are my family and best
friends.......
Robert Carpenter
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02-21-2006, 05:28 PM
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I've met Robert... It could be said that a nicer guy can not be found in the whole of SCCA. I'm certain he thought long and hard about the decision to file the protest and made a decision that he felt was best. I do not disagree with his decision to file the protest, his intentions were certainly true and honest.
Andy H.
Andy H.
02-22-2006, 08:54 AM
#10
Registered User
Thanks for the congrats Grant. It was a fast and fun weekend - just like it should be.
The speeds reported for Ian in the GT3 are not accurate. I had a data logger on the fastest CS Miata and a BSP STI and the fastest speeds we logged were around 67 mph. Plus the protest was for excessive speeds in turns. We're still waiting for the appeal to be decided, so none yet knows whether Sunday's times will be reinstated or not.
If they are not, I still retain my trophy as I was on the right side of a 0.037 second difference between 3rd and 4th place. Sorry it went the other way for you Ken.
The speeds reported for Ian in the GT3 are not accurate. I had a data logger on the fastest CS Miata and a BSP STI and the fastest speeds we logged were around 67 mph. Plus the protest was for excessive speeds in turns. We're still waiting for the appeal to be decided, so none yet knows whether Sunday's times will be reinstated or not.
If they are not, I still retain my trophy as I was on the right side of a 0.037 second difference between 3rd and 4th place. Sorry it went the other way for you Ken.
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