expensive tires vs cheap tires (Panarama article)
10-30-2002, 09:54 AM
#1
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expensive tires vs cheap tires (Panarama article)
I just read for the speedventures thing that they were possibly going to make a "Spec tire" (Nothing expensive).
This month in Panaroma (some goofy porsche magazine) they did a test of the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup vs Pirelli P-Zero Corsa vs Kumho Ecsta V700.
Long story short, they ran a Porsche 911 with the exact same size tires, etc.... and the Kumho's wore out completely in 16 laps of hot weather abuse. On top of that, they were over 2 seconds slower per lap than the michelin's.
The Pirelli's held up well, but were 2 seconds per lap slower than the michelin's too.
OK...finally... the point I was making.... the michelin's are expensive, but were the fastest around the track and also had 72% of their tread left after 54 laps.
Just some thought for the Speedventures stuff..... So in the end they would be cheaper than buying 2-3 sets of the slower kuhmo's.
Scot
This month in Panaroma (some goofy porsche magazine) they did a test of the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup vs Pirelli P-Zero Corsa vs Kumho Ecsta V700.
Long story short, they ran a Porsche 911 with the exact same size tires, etc.... and the Kumho's wore out completely in 16 laps of hot weather abuse. On top of that, they were over 2 seconds slower per lap than the michelin's.
The Pirelli's held up well, but were 2 seconds per lap slower than the michelin's too.
OK...finally... the point I was making.... the michelin's are expensive, but were the fastest around the track and also had 72% of their tread left after 54 laps.
Just some thought for the Speedventures stuff..... So in the end they would be cheaper than buying 2-3 sets of the slower kuhmo's.
Scot
10-30-2002, 10:09 AM
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Porsche has been in bed with Michelin on those tires for a long time - they were a spec tire for their racing series for a number of years before coming available to the general public through the Tire Rack.
The new Ecsta V700 is quicker to heat up and wear out than the Victoracer, which would have been the track tire pick of the two. What the hell is a Pirelli doing in there? How about a Hoosier or a Toyo?
The Michelin is a great tire on the track, maybe a bit faster than the Kumho, but no way 2 seconds! Just remember that Panorama went in there with something to prove, which is never a good thing when you're purporting to do an honest experiment.
The new Ecsta V700 is quicker to heat up and wear out than the Victoracer, which would have been the track tire pick of the two. What the hell is a Pirelli doing in there? How about a Hoosier or a Toyo?
The Michelin is a great tire on the track, maybe a bit faster than the Kumho, but no way 2 seconds! Just remember that Panorama went in there with something to prove, which is never a good thing when you're purporting to do an honest experiment.
10-30-2002, 11:31 AM
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Hey, there's an American tire that they left out of the tests. I wonder why 
They also left out the arguably better Kuhmo - maybe a size availability issue?
A real test would be like the one they did in the grassroot motorsports a while back. A handful of cars with the same driver in each. 3 makes of DOT race tire. AND (here's the key) they didn't tell the driver what tire he/she was running on (a single blind test).
The GRM guys did admit that though the drivers were not told which tire they were on - they managed to guess based on how the tire felt.
-r
They also left out the arguably better Kuhmo - maybe a size availability issue?A real test would be like the one they did in the grassroot motorsports a while back. A handful of cars with the same driver in each. 3 makes of DOT race tire. AND (here's the key) they didn't tell the driver what tire he/she was running on (a single blind test).
The GRM guys did admit that though the drivers were not told which tire they were on - they managed to guess based on how the tire felt.
-r
10-30-2002, 12:36 PM
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I agree with jzr. I think the Michelin is competitive both in lap times and wear rate, but not to the degree that Panaroma would have you believe. Did Panaroma reset and optimize wheel alignment and hot tire pressure for each tire? If not the results are even more questionable.
10-30-2002, 12:58 PM
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I would assume Michelin advertises the most in Panorama. 
Well anyway.... they did ask several companies (Toyo included) but apparently they needed to be a specific 18" size (front and back).... of course they could have purposely spec'd out those sizes to eliminate the other folks.?
I just thought it was neat (if the story tells the whole truth) that a $250 tire would only be 30% worn out when a $125 tire was completely worn out.... plus the expensive one was faster anyway.
Kind of like buying 4 Yugo's for the price of 1 Honda.... you enjoy the honda more and you end up saving $ in the end anyway.
Scot
Well anyway.... they did ask several companies (Toyo included) but apparently they needed to be a specific 18" size (front and back).... of course they could have purposely spec'd out those sizes to eliminate the other folks.?
I just thought it was neat (if the story tells the whole truth) that a $250 tire would only be 30% worn out when a $125 tire was completely worn out.... plus the expensive one was faster anyway.
Kind of like buying 4 Yugo's for the price of 1 Honda.... you enjoy the honda more and you end up saving $ in the end anyway.
Scot
10-31-2002, 10:42 PM
#6
Correct me If i'm wrong but, Didn't Andy Get a chance to drive an S2K with the Michelins and he called them "greesy" feeling. I was under the Impression that they were just over priced Yoko A032's. (relating them to A032's in terms of Competetiveness)
11-01-2002, 12:24 PM
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I autoxed on the Michelin's once and they seemed to be less responsive and have less grip than A compound Hoosiers. On a 30-odd second course, I was the better part of a second slower on the Michelins.
With regards to the Panorama article, I figured something had to be wrong for them to have gone through the Kumhos that fast. Some of their test criteria was pretty dumb, but may have been dictated by PCA rules (like only running OEM sizes).
People that have tracked the Michelins can comment there, but they certainly (IMHO) are not as fast as Kumho Victos or Hoosiers around auto-x course. I'm assuming that the Ecstas will be as good or better than the Victos for autox at some point if they ever are available in the right size with a good compound.
-Andy
With regards to the Panorama article, I figured something had to be wrong for them to have gone through the Kumhos that fast. Some of their test criteria was pretty dumb, but may have been dictated by PCA rules (like only running OEM sizes).
People that have tracked the Michelins can comment there, but they certainly (IMHO) are not as fast as Kumho Victos or Hoosiers around auto-x course. I'm assuming that the Ecstas will be as good or better than the Victos for autox at some point if they ever are available in the right size with a good compound.
-Andy
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