yamahaSHO

I'm with 99SH on this. I personally do not believe Canton on what they have told you.

Also, if you start calling people with valid complaints and observations a troll, guess how well that's going to go over for you...

davidc1

No, sorry I cannot. I didn't ask for any specific details about what or how things were changed. Just that they haven't had the same frequency of complaints with whatever changes they've made. My wording of "quality control" was just a general term for all the issues. I just changed the wording slightly to make it more general. Feel free to call or email them and ask.

davidc1

You can believe whatever you'd like. That's your right. If you think that they are lying that's fine.

And no, I wouldn't call your current response trollish. I've modified my post so that you wouldn't think it would apply to you.

99SH

We can't be naive and believe everything Canton (or whomever for that matter) says face value. You also shouldn't advertise that the issues were resolved if you don't have that information.

Unless they provide objective evidence, they have not changed anything as far as I'm concerned.


Edit: The broken clip due to plating is a good example we need to hear more of. Does this mean everyone on the initial group buy has sibling issue for these LOT of clips?

davidc1

JHC. Whatever man. You think they are lying to me then you can think they are lying. Go sue them. If you have a clip that broke, then you have a clip that broke. Replace it. They sell them everywhere. If it didn't break then you don't have a problem. How many clips are on the pan? I don't know...so two clips broke out of almost a thousand? Not a big issue. Please refer to the last sentence in post #409.

I know them well enough to believe them. I'm not an employee, but I've come to know them good enough to believe them. Good enough were they tell me certain things about their business that I pass on to you, but I can't tell you everything either. They haven't denied they've had any problems, they haven't told anyone to GFT. In fact, for the few people that have bothered to contact them with their issues, they've worked with them. The are a business so they aren't going to give you every detail of their manufacturing process.

s2000ellier

This thread adds value to the S2KI community.

99SH

David - I don't get it. You come in and state Canton has fixed all these problems and yet have nothing to back up a claim. When we question it you get upset?

It's just like anything else, trust but verify. No one is saying Canton is lying, we're asking to see the data.

davidc1

I don't get it either. They've seen the issues, they've worked with people who have contacted them.They've told you why they think think the issues have happened. . They've told you the issues seem to have been resolved. Companies produce products. Products can have problems. Problems get fixed. You don't get to see the data if the data is proprietary. Or frankly, if they just don't want to share it.

You and the other guy have said you don't believe that they have fixed any problems, but you say you aren't accusing them of lying? Huh? If they say they did, and you say you don't believe them, then you are saying they are lying.

What else do you need to know about two clips that broke? You want the name of their supplier? You want to know how many they purchased? You want to know exactly what changed in the metal? Come on...

They had a welder that didn't do a good job when their head guy was in the hospital. This was mentioned way, way back in the main thread. The head guy is back now. You want his name? You want the bad welders name? You want to know the dates he was in the hospital and when he came back on the job? You want to know what his medical issue was so that you can verify it won't affect his skills? What are you after?

They suggested a different way of tightening the pan bolts as well that seems to have helped. You want to know exactly how many pans didn't seal the first time? You want to know how many were returned? You want to know how many were sold after the initial run?

I'm not sure what data you are after, or what would satisfy you? You still drive an S2000, right? But, did Honda ever tell you how many AP1's ripped out suspension mounting points or how many they replaced under warranty? Did they ever say how many soft tops they replaced because of rips? Or how many they sold after the warranty? Or why they never fixed the issue? Or how many engines they fixed because of cracked retainers? Or how many they blamed on the owner and didn't fix? Or failed dome lights? Or why they never fixed the inadequate brake cooing on the track? Or why some cars had high oil consumption? Or what really causes the oil to get into the intake? And why they didn't engineer a catch can into the system like other manufactures? And why didn't they fix that? Or how many tranny's they replaced because of slipping out of gears, or getting locked out of gear?

Or, here's the best one...how many catalytic converters broke apart inside? And how many did they replace under warranty? And how many O2 sensors did they replace under warranty? Or how many people shelled out $800 for a cat, and $450 for an O2 sensor because Honda wouldn't pay? And, most importantly, why didn't they ever fix it?


Honda had over 10 years and 100,000 cars produced to fix some of these problems. And the most expensive one's and probably the easiest ones to fix (the soft top and cat), they never did.

But, I still trust Honda and drive their cars even though these problems were pretty damn common and cost me a lot of money.

Companies aren't gonna tell you everything man.

99SH

Agreed products have issues and get corrected over the lifetime and maturity of the product. I haven't seen any direct correspondence between Canton and the community (they do have our emails afterall); what you've said is all that we (at least I) have to go off of. You mentioned Canton has told us the issues and that they have been resolved; I don't remember seeing any email of that nature.

You (or Canton) mentioned that most/all issues have been resolved and that new pans are clear of these issues. The data I'm looking for is very simple. You went off on a great tangent in what we're looking for. I know you're trying to make a point, but let's keep this discussion sincere and to the facts. There are 3 items to any non-conformance. Defect, root cause & corrective action.

Defect #1: Gap between AC bracket causing mount/weld to crack.
Root Cause: Fixture/jig? pan design?
Corrective action: ?

Defect #2: Leaking welds
Root cause: workmanship? contamination/cleanliness? weld method? etc.
Corrective action: Review & change weld schedule ?

Defect #3: Pan sealing issues at flange interface
Root cause: ?
Corrective Action: revised torque sequence? (I'm not convinced this is the fix, maybe a mitigation)

Defect #4: Dip stick sticking
Root cause: Anti-slosh shield interference
Corrective Action: Redesign with a cutout for dip stick to prevent this from occurring?

Defect #5: Broken clips
Root cause: Plating method/fatigue
Corrective Action: ?

This is the type of data I'm looking for. If Canton never stated they fixed the known issues (maybe you unintentionally overcommited), please say so and we can ignore all this.

Something I didnt mention is reachback. Say the 4 clips on the pan broke over the course of ownership. The anti-slosh shield can shift and block the oil pickup starving the motor. Is Canton going to recall or email a notice to current owners to replace the clips? or to remove and inspect the pan every X miles of usage? Apply the same to each other defect.

I really wish Canton themselves would speak up rather than hearing it hearsay on a forum. An email blast would be great!

davidc1

The tangent I went off on, about Honda not giving you details either, applies here. You're way to anal about this. There's no point in me bothering them about this, I don't care about those details, because I simply believe them. They are not allowed to respond on the forum. There's not going to be an email blast if only two people are behind 99% of the posts, and 99% of the people who had issues haven't even contacted them. About defect rates of 0.1% in some cases.

You gotta be an engineer or something related. I was warned about you guys in school. lol


You want these answers, then ask them yourself. Seriously.