Boiled my brake fluid this weekend
08-25-2012, 04:28 AM
#22
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
08-25-2012, 08:25 PM
#23
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
08-26-2012, 05:05 PM
#24
Originally Posted by steguis' timestamp='1345897705' post='21963719
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
DO NOT do this. Pad temps will go anywhere in range from 150F up to around 1500F or so depending on the compound. Brake fluid max BP will be around 350 up to 650 or so. So, not only is it near impossible to do this, it's also down right dangerous.
What will happen is something like this. You use OEM pads, with a much lower operating temp together with RBF 660. Your pads will continue increasing in heat (beyond their upper limits) and then begin transferring that heat to your lines and fluids, which will then increase your fluid temps beyond their upper limits.
Due to the higher temps, you're likely to possibly completely burn away the pad material even to the backing plate, making things even hotter. If it had not already done so, your fluid will then boil. And now, you will have no pad material, boiling fluid, and no brakes. That's about worst case scenario. I figure you should probably get brake fade long before that and completely glaze over the OEM or whatever lower operating temp pad (non-track pad) before that happens.
Whatever the case, it's not a good idea. Get a good dedicated track pad, and quality fluid - ATE superblue/type 200 at the least and preferably RBF600, RBF660, or Ferodo's brake fluid. If you don't want to deal with track pad noise, extra wear on your rotors, you can do what I do.
I'm running carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R on the track. Recently I picked up a set of AX6 pads to use for the street for my front brakes - minimal noise and somewhat comparable braking characteristics on the street, minus the noise. You also don't have to worry about pad material, swapping rotors, and/or turning rotors and rebedding. Carbotech pads are interchangeable on rotors. Just make sure you don't mix and match AX pads with XP pads for the track. Also, don't run AX pads on the track - i'm pretty sure they'll overheat.
08-27-2012, 10:44 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by odb812' timestamp='1345955132' post='21965034
[quote name='steguis' timestamp='1345897705' post='21963719']
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
DO NOT do this. Pad temps will go anywhere in range from 150F up to around 1500F or so depending on the compound. Brake fluid max BP will be around 350 up to 650 or so. So, not only is it near impossible to do this, it's also down right dangerous.
What will happen is something like this. You use OEM pads, with a much lower operating temp together with RBF 660. Your pads will continue increasing in heat (beyond their upper limits) and then begin transferring that heat to your lines and fluids, which will then increase your fluid temps beyond their upper limits.
Due to the higher temps, you're likely to possibly completely burn away the pad material even to the backing plate, making things even hotter. If it had not already done so, your fluid will then boil. And now, you will have no pad material, boiling fluid, and no brakes. That's about worst case scenario. I figure you should probably get brake fade long before that and completely glaze over the OEM or whatever lower operating temp pad (non-track pad) before that happens.
Whatever the case, it's not a good idea. Get a good dedicated track pad, and quality fluid - ATE superblue/type 200 at the least and preferably RBF600, RBF660, or Ferodo's brake fluid. If you don't want to deal with track pad noise, extra wear on your rotors, you can do what I do.
I'm running carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R on the track. Recently I picked up a set of AX6 pads to use for the street for my front brakes - minimal noise and somewhat comparable braking characteristics on the street, minus the noise. You also don't have to worry about pad material, swapping rotors, and/or turning rotors and rebedding. Carbotech pads are interchangeable on rotors. Just make sure you don't mix and match AX pads with XP pads for the track. Also, don't run AX pads on the track - i'm pretty sure they'll overheat.
[/quote]
This is good advice^^^^
08-27-2012, 11:37 AM
#26
Since no one has responded to you, I will.
DO NOT do this. Pad temps will go anywhere in range from 150F up to around 1500F or so depending on the compound. Brake fluid max BP will be around 350 up to 650 or so. So, not only is it near impossible to do this, it's also down right dangerous.
What will happen is something like this. You use OEM pads, with a much lower operating temp together with RBF 660. Your pads will continue increasing in heat (beyond their upper limits) and then begin transferring that heat to your lines and fluids, which will then increase your fluid temps beyond their upper limits.
Due to the higher temps, you're likely to possibly completely burn away the pad material even to the backing plate, making things even hotter. If it had not already done so, your fluid will then boil. And now, you will have no pad material, boiling fluid, and no brakes. That's about worst case scenario. I figure you should probably get brake fade long before that and completely glaze over the OEM or whatever lower operating temp pad (non-track pad) before that happens.
Whatever the case, it's not a good idea. Get a good dedicated track pad, and quality fluid - ATE superblue/type 200 at the least and preferably RBF600, RBF660, or Ferodo's brake fluid. If you don't want to deal with track pad noise, extra wear on your rotors, you can do what I do.
I'm running carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R on the track. Recently I picked up a set of AX6 pads to use for the street for my front brakes - minimal noise and somewhat comparable braking characteristics on the street, minus the noise. You also don't have to worry about pad material, swapping rotors, and/or turning rotors and rebedding. Carbotech pads are interchangeable on rotors. Just make sure you don't mix and match AX pads with XP pads for the track. Also, don't run AX pads on the track - i'm pretty sure they'll overheat.
DO NOT do this. Pad temps will go anywhere in range from 150F up to around 1500F or so depending on the compound. Brake fluid max BP will be around 350 up to 650 or so. So, not only is it near impossible to do this, it's also down right dangerous.
What will happen is something like this. You use OEM pads, with a much lower operating temp together with RBF 660. Your pads will continue increasing in heat (beyond their upper limits) and then begin transferring that heat to your lines and fluids, which will then increase your fluid temps beyond their upper limits.
Due to the higher temps, you're likely to possibly completely burn away the pad material even to the backing plate, making things even hotter. If it had not already done so, your fluid will then boil. And now, you will have no pad material, boiling fluid, and no brakes. That's about worst case scenario. I figure you should probably get brake fade long before that and completely glaze over the OEM or whatever lower operating temp pad (non-track pad) before that happens.
Whatever the case, it's not a good idea. Get a good dedicated track pad, and quality fluid - ATE superblue/type 200 at the least and preferably RBF600, RBF660, or Ferodo's brake fluid. If you don't want to deal with track pad noise, extra wear on your rotors, you can do what I do.
I'm running carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R on the track. Recently I picked up a set of AX6 pads to use for the street for my front brakes - minimal noise and somewhat comparable braking characteristics on the street, minus the noise. You also don't have to worry about pad material, swapping rotors, and/or turning rotors and rebedding. Carbotech pads are interchangeable on rotors. Just make sure you don't mix and match AX pads with XP pads for the track. Also, don't run AX pads on the track - i'm pretty sure they'll overheat.
08-27-2012, 11:55 AM
#27
Thanks for the response. I'm using the RBF600 now and I'm planning on trying a bunch of different track pads to find the ones that suit me best. I'm doing a lot of track days this year, so I'll be going through pads pretty quickly. How much to you drive on the street and how much on the track? Do you have two sets of rotors, one set for each type of pad? If not do you turn the rotors when you change pads or just try to scrape as much pad residue off the rotors with cold pads like in the Essex video? How rotor friendly are the carbotech pads? Do you find your rotors develop little micro cracks quicker? I don't street drive my car enough to warrant using a dedicated street pad and a dedicated track pad. If you were in this situation would you have XP10 or XP8 on the front? Thanks again for the info.
08-27-2012, 12:09 PM
#28
Registered User
Originally Posted by odb812' timestamp='1345955132' post='21965034
[quote name='steguis' timestamp='1345897705' post='21963719']
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
I don't think the culprit here are the HP+ pads. If the pads overheated on you, you would've experienced brake fade on track. Because of the lower max temp of the pads, the pads should've gone out well before the pedal sank to the floor. I suspect the use of OEM fluid is really the problem here. That was the true weak point in this setup. Use ATE and you'll be fine.
DO NOT do this. Pad temps will go anywhere in range from 150F up to around 1500F or so depending on the compound. Brake fluid max BP will be around 350 up to 650 or so. So, not only is it near impossible to do this, it's also down right dangerous.
What will happen is something like this. You use OEM pads, with a much lower operating temp together with RBF 660. Your pads will continue increasing in heat (beyond their upper limits) and then begin transferring that heat to your lines and fluids, which will then increase your fluid temps beyond their upper limits.
Due to the higher temps, you're likely to possibly completely burn away the pad material even to the backing plate, making things even hotter. If it had not already done so, your fluid will then boil. And now, you will have no pad material, boiling fluid, and no brakes. That's about worst case scenario. I figure you should probably get brake fade long before that and completely glaze over the OEM or whatever lower operating temp pad (non-track pad) before that happens.
Whatever the case, it's not a good idea. Get a good dedicated track pad, and quality fluid - ATE superblue/type 200 at the least and preferably RBF600, RBF660, or Ferodo's brake fluid. If you don't want to deal with track pad noise, extra wear on your rotors, you can do what I do.
I'm running carbotech XP10/XP8 F/R on the track. Recently I picked up a set of AX6 pads to use for the street for my front brakes - minimal noise and somewhat comparable braking characteristics on the street, minus the noise. You also don't have to worry about pad material, swapping rotors, and/or turning rotors and rebedding. Carbotech pads are interchangeable on rotors. Just make sure you don't mix and match AX pads with XP pads for the track. Also, don't run AX pads on the track - i'm pretty sure they'll overheat.
[/quote]
Exactly what I do. XP10/8 on the track bedded to a set of rotors. And the OEM on the strret bedded to the "backup" set of rotors.
Changing pads for the track takes little time for the benefit you receive. Jacking up the car and getting the wheels off takes longer that the pad swap.
08-27-2012, 01:12 PM
#29
Thanks for the response. I'm using the RBF600 now and I'm planning on trying a bunch of different track pads to find the ones that suit me best. I'm doing a lot of track days this year, so I'll be going through pads pretty quickly. How much to you drive on the street and how much on the track? Do you have two sets of rotors, one set for each type of pad? If not do you turn the rotors when you change pads or just try to scrape as much pad residue off the rotors with cold pads like in the Essex video? How rotor friendly are the carbotech pads? Do you find your rotors develop little micro cracks quicker? I don't street drive my car enough to warrant using a dedicated street pad and a dedicated track pad. If you were in this situation would you have XP10 or XP8 on the front? Thanks again for the info.
As far as pads and rotors go. I specifically mentioned Carbotech because you can use one set of pads and not have to worry about pad material/bedding/residue. All of their pad compounds are cross compatible, meaning you can run a set of AX6 pads for the street, and swap out the pads for xp10/8 or xp12/10 for the track and not have to worry about turning rotors and/or rebedding.
This however is not true once you start swapping pads across brands. If you do that, then you'll need to have a set of dedicated rotors for your street pads and a set of dedicated rotors for your track pads, or you'll have to turn your rotors.
I'm not sure about compared to OEM and pads how long rotors last. The first thing I did when I got my s2000 was buy a set of xp10/8 pads and took it to an autocross and the track a few weeks after that. I actually was daily driving on XP10/8s (front/rear) for over a year and a half. I just picked up some AX6 pads for the street because my GF was complaining about the noise. If you get a proper bedding, they're not too noisy - I haven't been able to do that with this set of pads since I cracked a rotor at the track on my 6th day on those rotors/pads. I swapped them out both brand new at the track and didn't bed them properly since it was a track that was super easy and light on the brakes. I'm waiting for my next track day to get a better bedding since it's a brake heavy track. Once you get the proper bedding, XP10/8s are tolerable on the street.
If i was in your situation, I would do what I'm doing now. Carbotech XP10/8 Front/rear for the track, and if you want it to be a little bit friendlier for the streets, swap out some Carbotech AX6s for the front - just don't forget to re-swap the XP10s in when you go back to the track, or you'll be in for an unpleasant surprise.
08-27-2012, 05:10 PM
#30
Thanks for the advice, guys. It is rare for me to drive on the street besides going to and from track or autocross events, so there is no reason for me to change back and forth between street and track pads. Furthermore, I don't want to sit around with my thumb up my ass after my last session on Sunday waiting for my brakes to cool enough for me to change them.
Bullwings, that's interesting about being able to swap the street and track carbotech pads without cleaning/bedding the rotors. I know most companies have the same procedure for all of their pads, but I figured the material bedded onto the rotors would be different enough with different pad compositions.
My concern with rotors is that I have 5 or 6 track days on a set of brand new Brembo rotors and I'm already getting some pretty significant micro-cracks with HP+ pads, which are supposed to be more rotor-friendly than most track pads. I'm going to replace my rotors to prevent them from cracking long before I reach the minimum disc thickness. When I hear a pad "chews through rotors," that is not a concern as long as "chewing through rotors" just means grinding more surface material off on each application of the brakes, since I am changing them before reaching the minimum thickness anyway. If "chewing through rotors" also means developing micro-cracks earlier, then this is a huge concern for me.
It's funny I started this thread about a mistake I made in regards to brake fluid so that others won't make the same mistake, but now it's turning into a brake pad FAQ. Not that it's any problem for me--I'm getting a lot of good info that's going to keep me out on the track at my limit longer.
Bullwings, that's interesting about being able to swap the street and track carbotech pads without cleaning/bedding the rotors. I know most companies have the same procedure for all of their pads, but I figured the material bedded onto the rotors would be different enough with different pad compositions.
My concern with rotors is that I have 5 or 6 track days on a set of brand new Brembo rotors and I'm already getting some pretty significant micro-cracks with HP+ pads, which are supposed to be more rotor-friendly than most track pads. I'm going to replace my rotors to prevent them from cracking long before I reach the minimum disc thickness. When I hear a pad "chews through rotors," that is not a concern as long as "chewing through rotors" just means grinding more surface material off on each application of the brakes, since I am changing them before reaching the minimum thickness anyway. If "chewing through rotors" also means developing micro-cracks earlier, then this is a huge concern for me.
It's funny I started this thread about a mistake I made in regards to brake fluid so that others won't make the same mistake, but now it's turning into a brake pad FAQ. Not that it's any problem for me--I'm getting a lot of good info that's going to keep me out on the track at my limit longer.