EK9B18

My only questions is why the detonation didn't show up at the dyno. You know, sucking oil into the intake reduces the effective octane so, if you were pulling oil into the intake on track, that might explain detonation on track but, not on the dyno.

rob.ok

I run a dedicated oil catch can that vents in to open air and all the intake ports are blocked off. There is no way that any oil can be sucked into the intake manifold. Oil blow by in to the intake manifold is the first thing that any track S2000 eliminates.

-Rob

momofoolio

Rob,

I guess it is about time for me to share my story the first time on s2ki...
However, I will not announce the name of the shop because I do not want to start another war...

I bought an 02 AP1 in Summer 07 and the 100% stock engine blowed at BW in April 08 with only about 45k miles on it.
The rod in 2nd cylinder broked in half and sticked out from the side of the motor...
The root cause was probably oil starvation but I did not really investigate because I was still a newbie and did not know jack.

So here is my built:
1. Used AP1 block sleeved
2. Toda High CR (13:1) Pistons, I think the displacement also increased to 2.3
3. Brand New (not varified) OEM Crank and Rods
4. Ported Head + New Valve Guides
5. Big Throttle Body
6. AEM EMS
... and everything else un-mentioned were from the original ap1 motor.
The whole engine assembly and tunning was done by the same guy.

I ran in the motor with about 500 miles street driving before its first track day.
The first track day at BW was fine, I could not recall having any concerns that day.
However, during the 4th session on the 2nd track day I started feeling excessive vibration from the engine bay, so I did not run the last session but I did drive it home.

The next day I popped the head and found detonation marks all over the place like you did but not as bad.
The piston rings were still in place but the forged pistons have chunks missing and the cylinder wall is all scratched up.

It was not a quality built and I waited 110 days exact for the built.
When examing the entire motor at aother shop, we found:
1. oil pan missing bolts
2. engine mount missing bolts
3. 1 bolt was found floating in the oil pan
4. a lot of metal in the oil
5. marks of pistons hitting spark plugs

I recall going back and forth to the shop at least twice to change to shorter spark plugs during run in period because the pistons were hitting the spark plugs; but they were stil hitting each other when we disassembled everything.
It is a strong prove that the engine builder did not blue print, and it was verified by the guy himself because he said it was uncessary because he knew what he was doing when I asked him if he did blue print or not.

The guy accused me for overheating the motor but other mechanis believe it was detonation by bad tunning and engine assembly.
However, I did not have the water gauge working at that moment so I did not bring him to court.
P.S. I do not have any detail pix, either @@

It was a horrible experience, accounting I was still a newbie, and the whole process took about 10 month from begining to end before I get to get back on track.
It was 10 month without freedom to me =(

Anyways, I am just sharing my story very conservatively.
I do not want trouble and I hope no one attacks me or the guy because all I am trying to do is sharing an experience.

I let the grudge go already, I do not blame anyone but myself for not doing enough reseach in the first place; however, I am not saying it was your fault.
You did probably 50 times more research than I did yet resulted in a situation a little bit worse than me!
I know it sounds funny and probably insulting to a lot of tuners but I believe the F20/ 22C motor is still very far from being understood like the B series.

My honest advise, just get a used or even brand new OEM F22 my friend.
Seat time is everything and I'd wish I just ran with an ap2 in the first place so none of these would've happened and I'd have so much seat/ fun time already.

My initial attempt to save $$ from getting an used old ap1 over ap2 had turned out to be very costly, twice as much as if I just picked up an ap2.

I still remember every night I could not sleep becuase the motor I dropped 8k on just blowed after 2 track days.
It makes me want to kill myself (or perhaps others) whenever I review how much time, money, energy, and mind I had put in just to learn this lesson the hard way...

I seriously wish these kind of tragedy never happens again, yet it is just impossible.
There are so many under qualified shops out there claming they are pros and there are so many rich newbies or just innocent people who are willing to give away their big cash for a motor that they do not know will blow very soon.
It is simple supply and demand and certainly, there will be more stories being posted here following ours...

I sincerely wish the best to you and I look forward to meeting you at the track in person.
We have to drive together one day =)


-Alex

rob.ok

Alex,


You, Bill, and, myself should never meet in person. The world might end before 2012

We actually did meet...well sort of. We talked for a bit about the drive shaft spacers at BW (while you were under the car). You and I were both rather busy that day with our own failures to really have the chance to talk. Maybe next time with better luck (if luck was a lady....it'd take a lot of booze be fore we got lucky ).



All I can say is I feel you bro.

First things first...I can't comment on your car / motor but in general cooling is not an issue with NA s2ks even with all the OEM cooling equipment. Period. Besides, like you said, you felt a vibration....the same is true if the car is overheating. There are obvious signs with or without a gauge. Sure you might actually over heat the car instead of just getting it hot but even if that is the case I'd expect to see a warped head or some other significant sign that there was a major cooling issue.

I'm glad that you shared this story (but somewhat sad that it was after I had a problem). Our stories are very similar in many ways. I too received poor craftsmanship in the build and to be honest I was absolutely convinced that that was the problem. Simply hearing the answer 2 or 3 times was not enough for me to change my mind and even now I'm not convinced that it would not have lead to other issues. However I am convinced that the detonation that caused the failure was caused by other factors and had nothing to do with the build. I can only conclude after all my research that the most likely cause is advanced timing.



Our stories are important and they must be heard. In situations like ours, we are almost powerless to help ourselves or change the outcome of the situation. We have already lost everything However, we can help others. As consumers, its important that we learn form others experiences and share both good and bad feedback. What comes next is obvious. Those trying to get our business have to raise the bar on quality and customer service and that is good for all. Those who don't will not and should not get our continual support. That being said I have never been involved in any business that has not had one or two bad apples as it were. That is the nature of the beast....shit happens and sometimes thing are not resolved.However, Its the overall picture that counts. I have also known about business that have had a basket full of bad apples and that my friend is an informed decision I can make easily.


I think your right....OEM block and ECU is the best. We didn't buy Corvettes to begin with so there is no use crying over power. Its better to just let Honda do what its good at...... We can focus our efforts on other aspects. I think I'll dump the AEM EMS and probably just go back to a 2.0L (I like the gearing with 9k rpms). Of course like you....its a hard thinking about what could have been with the motors we built and tuned but, there is no reason to put myself in the same situation again. It really is the down time that kills me. I was planning on going to the SCCA school in March next year. I'd still like to make it but, I can not see that happening no matter what now. I love HPDE but my heart is in racing and that was the only reason single reason I bought an S2000. From day one my intention was to advance my driving and the car to full race status. Of course its a lot easier said than done but its nearly impossible if things keep going like this. I was out of the game for 9 months (which also had a lot to do with parts and the machine shop) but all in all this set back is pretty much gonna put me on the bench for well over a year!!!



Best of luck (or should I say fortune since we obviously don't have any) to you!
-Rob

momofoolio

Dear Rob,

Sorry it took me so long to reply, it was a busy week.

Ryan from Harmon Motive probably has killed more F20/22s than you, me, and Billy combined!
Yet their supercharged Mod Class Time Attack S2000 seems to be very reliable nowadays...
We should totally talk to him next time about it!!

I am sorry I did not post my story early enough to prevent the same tragedy happen to you, and I feel really bad about it.

The truth is that guy had an agreement with me, he agreed to build me another motor for free, but I need to pay for new pistons and machinary fees; in return I will not share my story over the internet.

Well, I have not yet receiced that new motor even though the promise was made in Jan 09.
If the first motor he builds blowed, what makes it creditable that the 2nd one will not!?
I have given up hope on that motor and I think I will just keep the dead block and head as spares, that is why I decided to share my story to the public the first time.

You are right! We should speak up to prevent the same tragedy from happening again!!
You have inspired me and given me courage to speak up; you are doing the right thing and you have my full support!!!

So what is your plan right now?
Yea man, just pick up a used F20 my friend, seat time = fun time is everything!!!
Remember to change the valve springs and retainers before you hit the track ok?
F20 does not have the upgraded titanium valves from Honda and there are lots of rumors about the retainers broke and drop into the cylinder like a grenade

By the way, yea, I remember talking to someone about T1R spacers while I was under the car at BW but I cannot recall your face (probably because I didn't see it!?)

Anyways, I TOTALLY FEEL YOU MAN, I really wanted to develope my S2K to full race status and start running SCCA or NASA!

I sincerely wish the best to you and your S2000 and I really look forward to be able to drive side by side with you in the future.
Drop me a line if you ever come down to LA, let's have dinner or something =)

All the Best,


-Alex

WynnS123

Also, if you source a '00-'01 F20 make sure you change out the oil jets (banjo bolts). Early models only had 2 holes. In '02 they changed over to 4 holes.

I also lost a 100% stock motor due to oil starvation. I believe the oil jets were to blame.

eastcoastbumps

Rob, sorry to hear about your motor. Its clear that you had a lot of time and money invested in it. I've been down the same street before.

Its clear that the engine went because of detonation. The map does have a lot of timing in it. However, if it had no trouble taking that kind of timing on the dyno then I'd look into other issues as well. Possibly a bad tank of gas at the track, or the gas you were tuned on was a higher octane than you thought. Does the AEM have closed loop knock control? Or at least a knock light? And was the AEM able to see engine temp (your tuner says that the gauge wasn't working)?

Pete

rob.ok

Pete,


You bring up some good points. I'll try to answer them and add some new info that I was given recently.

I do not know much about the AEM or how the knock works but I do not have any sort of knock light. Although if I knew the voltage reading I could actually program my dash to give me a warning based on the voltage reading but its kinda late for that.
I did not have the temp gauge working on my dash at the time (Race Technologies Dash2) but the AEM could read all the stock sensors and they were all working correctly. I had no concerns what so ever about the car over heating and did testing obviously while on the dyno and on the road before heading to the track.

The fuel I was running is 100 octane race gas. I seriously doubt that the fuel got mixed up or a bad batch. That type of stuff is pretty rare and I wouldn't be the only one. I did however check and it is yellow or orange in color. I'm not sure if its the same brand that it was tuned on but that really shouldn't matter as long as the octane is sufficient.



Now as far as the knock is concerned.....



I spoke with my tuner just the other day and received these files. I obviously don't know how to make heads or tails of them so I had the guys that I have been working with look into them. Everything seams to be normal and shows nothing out of the ordinary as far as knock is concerned.

Right now I am confused cause all of the information I've received is contradictory.

1. Everyone pretty much agrees that the timing values are high and risky at best.
2. The knock data log from the dyno session shows no unacceptable values and appears to be normal.

Click to enlarge.


Early on I investigated the deep scoring marks as the primary cause of the motor failure as they were obviously a defect form the honing process. The theory is that they would allow oil to pass and effectively lower the octane rating and cause detonation. However, if this is the case I would have expected to see unacceptable knock values while on the dyno and there certainly is no way we would have been able to dial in that much timing without seeing an issue if indeed that was the cause. Secondly, the professional opinion that I received regarding these scoring marks was that they would have no effect and certainly would not lead to detonation.

Pretty much everything else checks out ok. There really are not that many unknown factors. There are 2 questionable factors.

1. Deep scoring in the cylinder walls.
2. High timing figures.

Both of these items have reasonable explanations as to why they would not cause detonation and yet they both can be doubted. The knock was log externally and I was told that it is important to log this value internally as the speeds or resolution are about 20-30 times greater. We do not have a internal log so there could be something missing in the resolution of the knock but, for the most part I have been told that it looks exactly as it should and its par for the course.


At this time with the new knock information, I'm probably gonna have to conclude that that the ultimate cause can not be determined but that the questionable aspects of advanced timing and cylinder wall scoring may or may not have had an effect. Either on their own or combined. They are both questionable but can not be ruled out cause they both exist.

I will likely have to update the first post with this new and slightly modified determination and info.

-Rob

rob.ok

I also want to mention that so far the s2k community, the tuner, and my builder have all expressed their compassion and willingness to help. I'm not sure what will come of it but its nice when everyone pitches in to help a brother out. Hopefully a sad story will have a happy ending. My current situation has kinda grounded me so without some sort of a break I'm not gonna be going be doing nay laps for a while.

-Rob

blackey

Rob,

Was it tuned on 100 octane or 91?