2.2L Motor Failure Due To Detonation.
11-12-2009, 11:18 AM
#11
Former Moderator
Wow!!!
That really sucks to hear it's from someone that's going to tune my car.
I'll be getting a map from an e-manage? that was done by Blacktrax that hydrolocked
with fuel.
I'll send that out so people can see what was wrong with that.
That really sucks to hear it's from someone that's going to tune my car.
I'll be getting a map from an e-manage? that was done by Blacktrax that hydrolocked
with fuel.
I'll send that out so people can see what was wrong with that.
11-12-2009, 11:33 AM
#12
Administrator
who told you they tuned my car? They tried once like 5 years ago when I was na, couldn't beat the oem ecu w/ the ems. the 2nd time my car was there was asura renting the dyno to tune my car.
Sorry for the troubles. Go to sac or la for tuning next time
Sorry for the troubles. Go to sac or la for tuning next time
11-12-2009, 11:49 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Asura,Nov 12 2009, 10:40 AM
Oh really??? That's certainly news to my ears along with several S2Ki locals who were present while I was tuning Rylan's car on their dyno.
That's actually hillarious if they are claiming to take credit for MY work on Rylan's car.
For the record the last time we (S2Ki Race Team) rented their dyno was in Feb. 2008.
That's actually hillarious if they are claiming to take credit for MY work on Rylan's car.
For the record the last time we (S2Ki Race Team) rented their dyno was in Feb. 2008.
Do you deny that Mark and myself gave you the necessary pointers after 2.5hrs of unsuccessful tuning when Ry was SC'd, that resulted in power gains on Ry's motor? I heard you jumping with joy there after from the other side of our shop.
Correct, I've personally tuned Ry's car once N/A and Asura twice SC'd on our dyno because your first SC'd tune had part throttle bucking issues when Ry was racing at Infineon (expressed by you on your 2nd attempt). The car was brought back to our Dynapack and we instructed you on how to properly tune part throttle. Asura, I'm sure you're much seasoned now.
Please revisit the posted map again. I only tune in PSIg units. Because Rob's laptop units are setup in Kpa, the map does look off. Type in 101Kpa in a Kpa to Psig conversion and let me know what you find....
That said w/o supporting data no one "expert or non-expert" can make a conclusion by merely looking at spreadsheet with values.
11-12-2009, 11:59 AM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Anaheim, Orange County
Posts: 8,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rob.ok,Nov 12 2009, 11:02 AM
Seriously...i don't know what to say about that...it certainly sounded like they had worked on Ry's car to me 
It might be the duct tape queen of S2000 but its my favorite s2k!
It might be the duct tape queen of S2000 but its my favorite s2k!I assembled and installed the #8 SCCA ITE engine and tuned it myself with Rylan's assistance only. Along with the other ITE/ITR race cars I tuned.
Rob, I am really sorry they lied to you.
11-12-2009, 12:14 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Asura,Nov 12 2009, 12:59 PM
Ask Rylan, and the 5 other people that were present.
I assembled and installed the #8 SCCA ITE engine and tuned it myself with Rylan's assistance only. Along with the other ITE/ITR race cars I tuned.
Rob, I am really sorry they lied to you.
I assembled and installed the #8 SCCA ITE engine and tuned it myself with Rylan's assistance only. Along with the other ITE/ITR race cars I tuned.
Rob, I am really sorry they lied to you.
-I know there wasn't 5 witnesses as I remember clearly of the day because it was the day I expressed to you that we can't have such timely tuning come out of our shop. I presumed merit of your experience because you threw out the fact that you were using and getting trained by Shawn Church...............then offered you an ungodly wholesale discount dyno rental rate.
On the 2nd sc'd tune Ry was not there. Please disprove it.
The 2nd sc'd tune was the last day you rented our dyno. We're pretty happy about that arrangement. If anything, you learned something positive out of the situation.
11-12-2009, 12:29 PM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have seen this sort of thing happen on turbocharged 4 bangers, cannot speak to the F20/F22 and variants as I have zero experience building or tuning them. Motors behave differently when taken to the limit for long periods of time (i.e. track racing) compared to how they perform on the dyno. Most tuners will do a dyno pull, then wait 3-5 minutes (sometimes much longer than that), make tuning changes and then do another pull, so on so forth. This is fine for drag racing. On the flip side the DSM/EVO guys that track their cars will do back-to-back-to-back pulls on the dyno with little down time in order to get the motor nice and hot and on the upper limits of stress on lower-than-intended octane fuel (usually straight pump gas) and leave the tune on the conservative side. Then when it is track time, they run the 100 octane race juice and know that they have a nice conservative tune, on the richer side, for a knock free motor that can live at WOT for a 15-30 session or whatever they please safely. Is it optimal? Will it make the most power? Of course not. But it won't blow up. My sense is that maybe this motor was tuned beautifully on the dyno, but when it came to harsh track conditions it was a bit too aggressive.
Note that I am not speaking to anyone who may or may not have tuned this motor in this thread - I am not calling out anyone's expertise on the subject and you guys all seem like intelligent gentlemen with far more experience than I in tuning s2000's. I'm just articulating something that I have observed over the course of many years playing around with 4g63's. Sad to see this kind of stuff happen as it sucks for all parties involved. Good luck in the future and as they say- live and learn.
Note that I am not speaking to anyone who may or may not have tuned this motor in this thread - I am not calling out anyone's expertise on the subject and you guys all seem like intelligent gentlemen with far more experience than I in tuning s2000's. I'm just articulating something that I have observed over the course of many years playing around with 4g63's. Sad to see this kind of stuff happen as it sucks for all parties involved. Good luck in the future and as they say- live and learn.
11-12-2009, 12:33 PM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Anaheim, Orange County
Posts: 8,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by BlackTrax,Nov 12 2009, 12:49 PM
Asura,
Do you deny that Mark and myself gave you the necessary pointers after 2.5hrs of unsuccessful tuning when Ry was SC'd, that resulted in power gains on Ry's motor? I heard you jumping with joy there after from the other side of our shop.
Correct, I've personally tuned Ry's car once N/A and Asura twice SC'd on our dyno because your first SC'd tune had part throttle bucking issues when Ry was racing at Infineon (expressed by you on your 2nd attempt). The car was brought back to our Dynapack and we instructed you on how to properly tune part throttle. Asura, I'm sure you're much seasoned now.
Please revisit the posted map again. I only tune in PSIg units. Because Rob's laptop units are setup in Kpa, the map does look off. Type in 101Kpa in a Kpa to Psig conversion and let me know what you find....
That said w/o supporting data no one "expert or non-expert" can make a conclusion by merely looking at spreadsheet with values.
Do you deny that Mark and myself gave you the necessary pointers after 2.5hrs of unsuccessful tuning when Ry was SC'd, that resulted in power gains on Ry's motor? I heard you jumping with joy there after from the other side of our shop.
Correct, I've personally tuned Ry's car once N/A and Asura twice SC'd on our dyno because your first SC'd tune had part throttle bucking issues when Ry was racing at Infineon (expressed by you on your 2nd attempt). The car was brought back to our Dynapack and we instructed you on how to properly tune part throttle. Asura, I'm sure you're much seasoned now.
Please revisit the posted map again. I only tune in PSIg units. Because Rob's laptop units are setup in Kpa, the map does look off. Type in 101Kpa in a Kpa to Psig conversion and let me know what you find....
That said w/o supporting data no one "expert or non-expert" can make a conclusion by merely looking at spreadsheet with values.
That's not even close to being accurate and you know it.
Don't delude yourself or others in this forum regarding the origins of my tuning foundations. I was mentored by the very knowledgeable Shawn Church at Church Automotive Testing.
You misled rob.ok by taking credit for work you never did.
Since Feb 2008 I haven't been to your shop, and my Bay Area customers have driven their street cars (and we have towed our race cars) another 1.5 hours to rent a dyno in the Bay Area when we have needed one.
And for the record, I spent 8-10 total hours tuning Rylan's race motor for fuel economy to get it absolutely perfect. It was completed at another facility to which Rylan will attest. At that motor made with in 1% of the same 400WHP at the end of the race SEASON as it did at the beginning.
But I digress, and I think this is Rob's thread and we're getting sidetracked with your nonsense.
If you are in the Bay Area and require dyno tuning services, please contact either myself or Shad Huntley at Driving Ambition. Caveat Emptor.
11-12-2009, 01:23 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Forcednduckshn,Nov 12 2009, 02:29 PM
I have seen this sort of thing happen on turbocharged 4 bangers.............
In all honesty I planned on this motor lasting 24 day not 23 laps
11-12-2009, 05:39 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BlackTrax,Nov 12 2009, 05:25 PM
I believe Rob left a couple points out that should be noted and are relative and could have provided informational insight to the failure.
1) the map we uploaded is not the exact map that is downloaded and/or shown
2) the car did not have a working coolant temp gauge on the factory cluster, his data acquisition, nor was EMS datalogging turned on
Dynotuning is standard procedure. You acquire as much data as you possibly can, edit your maps, log and measure your results all trying to control the environment and other variables while you're tuning...then it repeats itself. Circle of life. It's not rocket science.
To reiterate my phone convo with Rob, under the circumstances of how the engine was built, it's condition, the date, time, temp, fuel octane an all relating factors on the date of the tune, this map was tuned to the best of my ability covering every possible cell thru the load and rev range. Data shows the motor taking 30deg of timing with efficiently positive results. Under these circumstances, I would hope that other reputable/qualified tuners can relate and understand my experience and that it is highly probable to for a honda 4 cylinder engine taking such timing values under such conditions. That said, we have offered our services to Rob with hopes that he will return for another tune to prove in fact that we are a qualified to tune his track car. I've also expressed our compassion toward his engine failure and also expressed our continued support.
BT tends to stay away from the boards because of the amount of hearsay that commonly gets thrown out.
We continuously are grateful to all the supporters thru the almost 8 years we've been in business. Thank you to all who congratulated us for our achievements at Speed World Touring Car Challenge at Laguna Seca of wining the Sonoco Hard Charger award. It was our first time competing against the well renowned Real Time Racing Acura's and Tri Point Mazdas and we stayed competitive. The complete engine tuning was sponsored and performed by us. The tuning protocol is identical to one performed on rob's. Those of you who are unaware, this is a 40min race. Then add 2yrs of NASA Honda Challenge racing on top, all off the same engine.
My hopes are that this becomes a learning experience for all. PLEASE qualify your vendors before using them. Best wishes and good luck.
1) the map we uploaded is not the exact map that is downloaded and/or shown
2) the car did not have a working coolant temp gauge on the factory cluster, his data acquisition, nor was EMS datalogging turned on
Dynotuning is standard procedure. You acquire as much data as you possibly can, edit your maps, log and measure your results all trying to control the environment and other variables while you're tuning...then it repeats itself. Circle of life. It's not rocket science.
To reiterate my phone convo with Rob, under the circumstances of how the engine was built, it's condition, the date, time, temp, fuel octane an all relating factors on the date of the tune, this map was tuned to the best of my ability covering every possible cell thru the load and rev range. Data shows the motor taking 30deg of timing with efficiently positive results. Under these circumstances, I would hope that other reputable/qualified tuners can relate and understand my experience and that it is highly probable to for a honda 4 cylinder engine taking such timing values under such conditions. That said, we have offered our services to Rob with hopes that he will return for another tune to prove in fact that we are a qualified to tune his track car. I've also expressed our compassion toward his engine failure and also expressed our continued support.
BT tends to stay away from the boards because of the amount of hearsay that commonly gets thrown out.
We continuously are grateful to all the supporters thru the almost 8 years we've been in business. Thank you to all who congratulated us for our achievements at Speed World Touring Car Challenge at Laguna Seca of wining the Sonoco Hard Charger award. It was our first time competing against the well renowned Real Time Racing Acura's and Tri Point Mazdas and we stayed competitive. The complete engine tuning was sponsored and performed by us. The tuning protocol is identical to one performed on rob's. Those of you who are unaware, this is a 40min race. Then add 2yrs of NASA Honda Challenge racing on top, all off the same engine.
My hopes are that this becomes a learning experience for all. PLEASE qualify your vendors before using them. Best wishes and good luck.
First of all this thread is designed to get right down to the point and be plain and simple. I linked the original thread where everything was disclosed in full detail.
Please read that thread if you would like to know the full story. This one is designed to simply let you know who did what and what I think of it. The power of consumers is in our hands.
Jei,
The map is in no way, shape, or form altered. It is the exact map that I downloaded from the EMS after changing from 8400 to 8450 rpms. Which we had discussed cause I might need or want a few extra rpms depending on the gearing. I have found that AEM has the correct settings but sometimes needs to be refreshed in the units display. There is a thread about that either on here or the AEM boards. It is absolutely absurd for you to suggest that the map I posted has been tampered with by myself. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if that is your claim I'll have you know that I won't play that game.
Here it is again with the values reselected.
It is true that the coolant gauge was not working but I was keeping my eye on it and through various other means. Secondly, there were no cooling issues while on the dyno when the tune was preformed HOT under your supervision. I could have just as easily lied about the sensor but I have no reason to. If I was having a cooling issue I'd actually say that the detonation that was occurring was causing it not the other way around. Again all details are disclosed in the original thread (except my final thoughts on the situation...I just let the member tell my story for me).
To reiterate our conversation from my point of view.......We disagree. Its that simple really. I checked with 2 piston manufactures, multiple engine builders, multiple certified tuners and also checked / compared what other people were running (as far as timing) including a car that has an almost an identically built motor. All have come the the exact same conclusion. You are the only one that does not see it that way. You of all people know that I extensively researched every avenue. The only problem is that no matter how I looked at it all the roads lead back to the same place....Advanced Timing. I have to put stock in what multiple professionals from different avenues of the business that have no stake in the matter tell me. Its a trail judged by your peers not me.
I do not feel that I have or am doing an injustice to you or your business by telling the story. The chances that I have been mislead by many vs the few is very, very slim.
For all those reading this please read the original thread I linked. Chris Barry calls it with his first post almost immediately after I asked the community for help. That thread had some pretty in depth discussion about the hole ordeal from beginning to end. I'd love to see the tune be defended there. Those guys know what the real deal is and are not afraid to call it what it is.
I'll be the first to say that I don't like this situation and I've tried to be somewhat low key about it. However, its purpose is simply to tell you that I had a problem, a serious problem that cost me a lot of time money and worst of all my own personal development in driving. I've investigated the failure to the very end and collected as much data I could before drawing a conclusion. The decision I have made is not a hasty one, nor is it one sided. It is however unanimous (well almost s almost.... it requires the vote of the tuner as well which he has not given me). Its a battle that I lost a long time ago and if any one gets hurt or got hut its me...the consumer. I will not let anyone else fall into that situation without telling my story first. The shameless self promotion in an attempt to draw some correlation to my car has seriously aggravated me. I do not care about anyone racing in this thread but myself.
If anyone wants specifics (as side form the stuff I got in confidentiality) I'll be more than happy to give it to you.
-Rob