Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-23-2014, 03:49 AM
#81
Registered User
This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
F1 is F1. Urge don't design F1 engines and the basis between a race engine and an F1 engine is lightyears apart.
To me a race engine is one that is blueprinted, lightened, and completely balanced. Not just in weight, but in combustion chamber volumes, flow rates, injector spray patterns etc etc. The whole engine is optimised for 5500-9500rpm with feck all below because it's just not needed.
Honda make that engine to do 9000rpm for over 100,000 miles so it's not as if they do a rubbish job.
08-23-2014, 03:52 AM
#82
Registered User
Originally Posted by Craig.h' timestamp='1408745045' post='23298350
Pretty terrible in my opinion........
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
In a business stand point, a customer spends 20k with me, I'll be damn sure they want to refer their friends to me by being proactive. I don't work for free, but they know they are getting their money's worth.
We can all mess up, but it's how you deal with it that makes you.
08-23-2014, 07:26 PM
#84
Member
Thread Starter
"The reason you can't see "balance marks" is because we grind material and smooth those areas during the balancing process. The only balancing holes that are drilled in the crank were those done by Honda. We prefer to balance cranks by removing material in such a way as to keep the counterweight surfaces smooth.....as is done with all racing cranks. We use the finest crankshaft balancing equipment available, and since we don't simply drill holes, the balancing operation can take as much as four hours time for the crank alone.
There are approximately (30) 2.25 liter F22C's that we've built with cranks that have been lightened identically to the one in the UK engine. None has experienced bearing issues. We have also used these same cranks in 13 road race K20's and K24's, once again with zero bearing issues.
The main bearing housing in the block was carefully align-honed for straightness and the main bearing clearance was exactly .00200", which has worked for all of our road racing F22C's.
I should also mention that when Fluidampr did their balancer testing here on our dyno, the engine also utilized one of our lightened cranks, and their engineers said right away that harmonics were remarkably low for an in-line 4-cylinder engine (with a stock damper).
I might mention that Honda actually removes four of the eight counterweights on many of their road racing engine cranks......see attachment."
Now we found it to be over 300 g/mm total (oem is 100 typical) although I haven't asked if this is because material has been wiped from the surfaces due to bearing failure.
08-23-2014, 07:48 PM
#85
Former Moderator
If it's a blueprinted engine they should have the bobweights and balance #'s recorded. If the crank was balanced with 1 set of rods/piston bobweight then a different set was installed that will effect the dynamic balance.
08-23-2014, 11:23 PM
#88
Surely there can be no dispute that the inlet manifold has failed. Has there been any suggestion of a new one being supplied under warranty?
I can perfectly understand mark's reluctance to send the engine back. Endyne/Urge seem are certainly giving the impression they are going to do everything they can to dodge any liability with this engine.
Mark is a very reasonable guy, a competent engineer and does not believe in cutting corners or going for the lowest cost option. I'm sure that he has only posted this thread out of utter frustration with Endyne/Urge.
I can perfectly understand mark's reluctance to send the engine back. Endyne/Urge seem are certainly giving the impression they are going to do everything they can to dodge any liability with this engine.
Mark is a very reasonable guy, a competent engineer and does not believe in cutting corners or going for the lowest cost option. I'm sure that he has only posted this thread out of utter frustration with Endyne/Urge.
08-24-2014, 07:07 AM
#89
Originally Posted by Slows2k' timestamp='1408659022' post='23296798
I don't see any Mallory slugs pressed in the counterweights to rebalance after the crankshaft was lightened. Do you have a local machine shop who can check the balance? They will need piston and rod weights, a flywheel and the crank pulley.
"The reason you can't see "balance marks" is because we grind material and smooth those areas during the balancing process. The only balancing holes that are drilled in the crank were those done by Honda. We prefer to balance cranks by removing material in such a way as to keep the counterweight surfaces smooth.....as is done with all racing cranks. We use the finest crankshaft balancing equipment available, and since we don't simply drill holes, the balancing operation can take as much as four hours time for the crank alone.
There are approximately (30) 2.25 liter F22C's that we've built with cranks that have been lightened identically to the one in the UK engine. None has experienced bearing issues. We have also used these same cranks in 13 road race K20's and K24's, once again with zero bearing issues.
The main bearing housing in the block was carefully align-honed for straightness and the main bearing clearance was exactly .00200", which has worked for all of our road racing F22C's.
I should also mention that when Fluidampr did their balancer testing here on our dyno, the engine also utilized one of our lightened cranks, and their engineers said right away that harmonics were remarkably low for an in-line 4-cylinder engine (with a stock damper).
I might mention that Honda actually removes four of the eight counterweights on many of their road racing engine cranks......see attachment."
Now we found it to be over 300 g/mm total (oem is 100 typical) although I haven't asked if this is because material has been wiped from the surfaces due to bearing failure.
I can not respond to any of your back an forth banter.. just reads too emotional to an outsider.. so I look for information.. that allows me to see and make considerations there of.. that or this is all turning one sided.. you know..
08-24-2014, 07:30 AM
#90
There is definitely a decent amount of profit the shop has made on a $17k engine build, unless..
A- they are some non profit organization working to better the s2000 community without making a profit
Or
B- they truly suck at business
...the first, they definitely are not, the second..I certainly hope they are not either as they seemed a promising group of people looking to better our vehicles through improved design and new products.
I actually was previously thinking of having them build me a shortblock (and spoke to patrick about it) until i decided to just purchase a stock from Honda F22 shortblock for My AP1 because the deal was just too good to pass up, and until reading this post was still going to send them my head which was built with all supertech valvetrain and still never even used, just so they can check it and even improve upon it as the head is stock except for the valvetrain. A post like this does have me a little skeptical though.
That being said... there is definitely room in their profit margin for Them to pay the shipping cost for the motor to be sent back to them, and be inspected by them(as they requested, which is reasonable) without them actually saying they lost money on this build and still profiting, although less. The majority of all good business people have lost money in the past supporting and standing by their product or service, including myself. With that simple gesture and action they would have not had us all doubting them as a company and solidified themselves as a business within the s2000 world and most likely even gain additional business if they came to some sort of compromise and solution that both they and the customer could be happy with. I can't and won't speak on anything technical in regards to the motor itself as I am far from knowledgable in the subject. Speak to me about bodywork though and I'll school your ass haha.
Just wanting to show how other potential customers/ business persons might feel. This is how I feel about it!
A- they are some non profit organization working to better the s2000 community without making a profit
Or
B- they truly suck at business
...the first, they definitely are not, the second..I certainly hope they are not either as they seemed a promising group of people looking to better our vehicles through improved design and new products.
I actually was previously thinking of having them build me a shortblock (and spoke to patrick about it) until i decided to just purchase a stock from Honda F22 shortblock for My AP1 because the deal was just too good to pass up, and until reading this post was still going to send them my head which was built with all supertech valvetrain and still never even used, just so they can check it and even improve upon it as the head is stock except for the valvetrain. A post like this does have me a little skeptical though.
That being said... there is definitely room in their profit margin for Them to pay the shipping cost for the motor to be sent back to them, and be inspected by them(as they requested, which is reasonable) without them actually saying they lost money on this build and still profiting, although less. The majority of all good business people have lost money in the past supporting and standing by their product or service, including myself. With that simple gesture and action they would have not had us all doubting them as a company and solidified themselves as a business within the s2000 world and most likely even gain additional business if they came to some sort of compromise and solution that both they and the customer could be happy with. I can't and won't speak on anything technical in regards to the motor itself as I am far from knowledgable in the subject. Speak to me about bodywork though and I'll school your ass haha.
Just wanting to show how other potential customers/ business persons might feel. This is how I feel about it!