Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-22-2014, 05:03 PM
#71
It's not a moot point if its their policy. Not taking sides but I read the policy all the time when I buy big ticket items. Me personally....I would never go out if country for tuner parts.
08-22-2014, 05:27 PM
#72
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Daytona-Dave' timestamp='1408718956' post='23297620
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1408717208' post='23297571']
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
I agree that people are going to have they're own take on how it happened but this is a tad unrealistic or more than 50% of all race cars at most race meetings would end up with a blown engine, it is after all a race engine not a stock as yours was so there fore would/should have being built to suit the challenge ahead, most tracks have rumble strips which most race drivers useSheesh ... I did NOT say that every S2000 that goes over the rumple strips will blow the motor. I said it can, and sometimes does. All you guys bashing URGE act like it's impossible that it could have failed due to oil starvation, and that URGE should just write the guy a check without even seeing the fvcking motor. Ridiculous! Damn, I'm thanking God that I never had a post like this about one of the exhaust systems...
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.
[/quote]
As before, there are no signs of oil starvation or heat on the bearings so your theory does not hold water. Please focus on the findings of the failure. Main bearings all totalled, big end bearings are ok.
This is not the case of some 'A-hole' coming up with a sad story. Look at it with your eyes open. My aim is not to hurt anyone's business, however I have reached a point where all I can gain is to make sure others are fully aware of what you can expect when dealing with the companies involved.
08-22-2014, 05:28 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by AE85' timestamp='1408754856' post='23298469
[quote name='f20kills' timestamp='1408751491' post='23298429']
I get it..I really do. But I dont know any shop who covers shippng...any. I'm wondering if that was stated on their warranty policy?
I get it..I really do. But I dont know any shop who covers shippng...any. I'm wondering if that was stated on their warranty policy?
It's not a moot point if its their policy. Not taking sides but I read the policy all the time when I buy big ticket items. Me personally....I would never go out if country for tuner parts.
[/quote]
Yes it is a moot point, its got zero to do with their policy. Its got all to do with their attitude to the breakage.
08-22-2014, 05:29 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1408730072' post='23297966
[quote name='Daytona-Dave' timestamp='1408718956' post='23297620']
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1408717208' post='23297571']
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1408717208' post='23297571']
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
I agree that people are going to have they're own take on how it happened but this is a tad unrealistic or more than 50% of all race cars at most race meetings would end up with a blown engine, it is after all a race engine not a stock as yours was so there fore would/should have being built to suit the challenge ahead, most tracks have rumble strips which most race drivers useSheesh ... I did NOT say that every S2000 that goes over the rumple strips will blow the motor. I said it can, and sometimes does. All you guys bashing URGE act like it's impossible that it could have failed due to oil starvation, and that URGE should just write the guy a check without even seeing the fvcking motor. Ridiculous! Damn, I'm thanking God that I never had a post like this about one of the exhaust systems...
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.
[/quote]
As before, there are no signs of oil starvation or heat on the bearings so your theory does not hold water. Please focus on the findings of the failure. Main bearings all totalled, rod bearings are ok.
This is not the case of some 'A-hole' coming up with a sad story. Look at it with your eyes open.
[/quote]
I cant believe this guy is calling you an "a-hole" for buying a new engine that blew up.
08-22-2014, 05:36 PM
#75
If their policy says they dont refund shipping. ..like all of them do (check just return policy) whats to be expected? Check special order items...no returns period. Policy...its for sure not a moot point. Thats why I ask if he knew the policy. ..clearly at this point...its very important and a lesson learned for both parties if one was not in place.
08-22-2014, 05:38 PM
#76
Site Moderator
I didn't say to just send it back. I said work it out so there can be an agreement depending on the findings that both parties can be happy with. Also it does seem that Urge's stance on this from the beginning has been that they want to inspect the engine to try and determine what happened. MB has pushed back on this (and I get it I know it is very expensive to ship it) but the fact remains trust is a 2 way street. MB doesn't trust what Urge will say and Urge isn't just going to trust what MB says without being able to look at the thing themselves since based on the files they posted the engine was running fine when shipped. It is a crappy situation no matter how you cut it for both parties involved but this is just a stand still. I do like the idea of sending the damaged parts since maybe that could provide some step forward so maybe try and work that out?
Also yes I know the example of the benz isn't exactly the same it is just an example. Say a Rolex or Zonda or whatever the hell is most like a custom built race engine that the person who built it is on the other side of the world from the customer that bought it and it blew up
Also yes I know the example of the benz isn't exactly the same it is just an example. Say a Rolex or Zonda or whatever the hell is most like a custom built race engine that the person who built it is on the other side of the world from the customer that bought it and it blew up
08-22-2014, 06:53 PM
#77
I have experience of a fully rebuilt gearbox failing after 1 lap on track. The gearbox was rebuilt by one of the best in the business. He asked for photos of the oil condition, length of the prop used and a few other bits and pieces that could cause the failure out with his rebuild. Once this was provided he arranged a courier that collected the gearbox from my doorstep, carried out a full inspection, accepted liability, repaired it and returned it to my door.
That is a reputable company looking after a customer. I would expect the exact same from endyn/urge, Zonda, rolex etc etc etc.
This situation would not have ended like this is endyn/urge had confidence in their product and supported their customers. Simple.
That is a reputable company looking after a customer. I would expect the exact same from endyn/urge, Zonda, rolex etc etc etc.
This situation would not have ended like this is endyn/urge had confidence in their product and supported their customers. Simple.
08-22-2014, 09:17 PM
#78
I definitely agree that they could have worked out a more reasonable solution for inspection instead of shipping the entire engine back. But data logs would have likely taken care of that, and for all I know that could be something that was attempted.
08-22-2014, 10:14 PM
#79
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Originally Posted by AE85' timestamp='1408757310' post='23298508
Yes it is a moot point, its got zero to do with their policy. Its got all to do with their attitude to the breakage.
I definitely agree that they could have worked out a more reasonable solution for inspection instead of shipping the entire engine back. But data logs would have likely taken care of that, and for all I know that could be something that was attempted.
08-22-2014, 11:25 PM
#80
Pretty terrible in my opinion........
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
In a business stand point, a customer spends 20k with me, I'll be damn sure they want to refer their friends to me by being proactive. I don't work for free, but they know they are getting their money's worth.