Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-22-2014, 01:45 PM
#61
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Thread Starter
Some interesting points here but I think this theory on the kerb is HiGHLY unlikely. Even if it did, is this my fault the engine can't handle a very common racing situation?
Here's a typical image from one of my competetors, who runs a baffled sump. He's been hitting suasage kerbs for years on a built K20 engine.
My engine has not failed due to fuel starvation (det) or oil starvation. There are no signs of heat. If it had oil starved, why are the big ends fine? They would go first. You can see the pictures of the pistons, all fine. Top end is fine, liners are fine. I have a Radium fuel surge kit installed to protect against that.
Look at the picture below, the bearings have been hammered. It's a fatigue failure. A few of them are down to bare metal. Which takes an unbelievable amout of force. I suspect that has happened over a short time and gone exponential.
How can all the main bearings grenading themselves be my fault? Believe me, we have exhausted what we can and I would have held my hands up if it could have been me, but failing the first time it saw hard use?
The rods used are oem weight, the counterweight has 5lbs plus shaved off and near nothing on the other side, the bearings have massive signs of damage predominantly on one side, we found the crank at 3x oem typical balance figures.
Here's a typical image from one of my competetors, who runs a baffled sump. He's been hitting suasage kerbs for years on a built K20 engine.
My engine has not failed due to fuel starvation (det) or oil starvation. There are no signs of heat. If it had oil starved, why are the big ends fine? They would go first. You can see the pictures of the pistons, all fine. Top end is fine, liners are fine. I have a Radium fuel surge kit installed to protect against that.
Look at the picture below, the bearings have been hammered. It's a fatigue failure. A few of them are down to bare metal. Which takes an unbelievable amout of force. I suspect that has happened over a short time and gone exponential.
How can all the main bearings grenading themselves be my fault? Believe me, we have exhausted what we can and I would have held my hands up if it could have been me, but failing the first time it saw hard use?
The rods used are oem weight, the counterweight has 5lbs plus shaved off and near nothing on the other side, the bearings have massive signs of damage predominantly on one side, we found the crank at 3x oem typical balance figures.
08-22-2014, 02:04 PM
#62
Pretty terrible in my opinion........
The intitial blame to the cause of the failure from MB that endyn/urge have published in this thread is to be expected. I would put it down to emotion. Endyn/urge rejected these claims and refused to pay for the motor to be sent back to them so MB, IMO, done the right thing and had the engine independently inspected. The conclusion of this inspection was passed to endyn/urge and yet they still refused to pay for the shipment back to the states.
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
The fact that endyn/urge have publicly posted in this thread calling out the tuner as possibly incompetent, MB as possibly incompetent at looking at a gauge and driving over grass as a possible cause to the failure is shocking. And bringing up the fact that the log on the ecu wasn't enabled in a way to build their case of MB and the tuner being incompetent, well if you want logs on your engines to back up warrantee claims endyn/urge you should have this in your terms and conditions...... If it's not then you are simply trying to pass blame and look good to all the people that will read this by putting doubt in their minds.
MB has remained pretty professional in my eyes, refusing to post anything about the failure until it had been resolved. It looks like it will never be resolved by the builder so he has publicly shared his findings/experience and yet still endyn/urge won't budge, instead responded in this thread by putting blame on MB/his tuner/grass/rear bumper damage etc etc etc
If they really stood behind their products and customers this issue would never have been made public and would have been resolved amicably by now.
The intitial blame to the cause of the failure from MB that endyn/urge have published in this thread is to be expected. I would put it down to emotion. Endyn/urge rejected these claims and refused to pay for the motor to be sent back to them so MB, IMO, done the right thing and had the engine independently inspected. The conclusion of this inspection was passed to endyn/urge and yet they still refused to pay for the shipment back to the states.
If I was charging people 17k for something that failed I would happily pay 1k of my businesses money to inspect the item myself to put to bed any rumours/blame. A simple gesture of we will pay to have it come back to us, but if we find no issue with our product you are liable for return shipping would be sufficient I reckon but that has not even been offered?!
The fact that endyn/urge have publicly posted in this thread calling out the tuner as possibly incompetent, MB as possibly incompetent at looking at a gauge and driving over grass as a possible cause to the failure is shocking. And bringing up the fact that the log on the ecu wasn't enabled in a way to build their case of MB and the tuner being incompetent, well if you want logs on your engines to back up warrantee claims endyn/urge you should have this in your terms and conditions...... If it's not then you are simply trying to pass blame and look good to all the people that will read this by putting doubt in their minds.
MB has remained pretty professional in my eyes, refusing to post anything about the failure until it had been resolved. It looks like it will never be resolved by the builder so he has publicly shared his findings/experience and yet still endyn/urge won't budge, instead responded in this thread by putting blame on MB/his tuner/grass/rear bumper damage etc etc etc
If they really stood behind their products and customers this issue would never have been made public and would have been resolved amicably by now.
08-22-2014, 02:51 PM
#63
Site Moderator
At this point any continued finger pointing is just speculation. Both sides have pointed at multiple things that could have been the reason for the failure.
At this point MB should send the motor back to Urge as he should have enough info from the independent tear down to narrow down the things it could be. Data logs would have maybe helped in not having to send it back and not doing that is on him plain and simple. Hell it makes sense to have that turned on for the first run of a newly built engine to see if there is anywhere that it could be having issues. I know shipping the motor will be expensive but it seems to be the best next step in actually getting this resolved. It is still unreasonable to expect urge to cover something when they haven't had the cancel to see it themselves. No one does this. If you bought a 100k Benz and it blew up they would want to inspect the car this is no different. Work out them refunding you for shipping if it is determined it was a failure on their end and move forward as all that's is going to happen is this will just less and less civil.
At this point MB should send the motor back to Urge as he should have enough info from the independent tear down to narrow down the things it could be. Data logs would have maybe helped in not having to send it back and not doing that is on him plain and simple. Hell it makes sense to have that turned on for the first run of a newly built engine to see if there is anywhere that it could be having issues. I know shipping the motor will be expensive but it seems to be the best next step in actually getting this resolved. It is still unreasonable to expect urge to cover something when they haven't had the cancel to see it themselves. No one does this. If you bought a 100k Benz and it blew up they would want to inspect the car this is no different. Work out them refunding you for shipping if it is determined it was a failure on their end and move forward as all that's is going to happen is this will just less and less civil.
08-22-2014, 02:52 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1408730378' post='23297979
[quote name='Ryuu' timestamp='1408725160' post='23297830']
oh my.. well.. this damage has been done... your expecting professional quality work from shade tree mechanics, hobbyists, .. hmmmm.. reading some of the back an forth conversations, one question, do any one of these mechanics actually have credentials.. degrees, are engineers.. at least high school shop class... just because a guy owns the tools.. does not make him a mechanic, owning a business does not make one any more professional... now, this has made all that questionable.. and professionalism... please.. that went out the door when they re-worded / changed their warranty...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
oh my.. well.. this damage has been done... your expecting professional quality work from shade tree mechanics, hobbyists, .. hmmmm.. reading some of the back an forth conversations, one question, do any one of these mechanics actually have credentials.. degrees, are engineers.. at least high school shop class... just because a guy owns the tools.. does not make him a mechanic, owning a business does not make one any more professional... now, this has made all that questionable.. and professionalism... please.. that went out the door when they re-worded / changed their warranty...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
You're saying that every time someone accuses you of something, and refuses to show you proof, you "own up to it"? That doesn't sound like a very good plan for success...
in this event.. I have seen an offer to send, no offer to support, a retract of the too send and a regrouping of who is this one guy dealing with cause their personality changed.. and now.. we're at the.. a second party has determined.. well, second parties determine stuff all the time for clients who have questions.. and up to date, we've got No one's to blame...
believe me, if I structurally engineer a building, an shave off some of those odd supporting counter weighted thingys cause I think it'll be ok... they're gonna be blaming myasssss and it's serious jail time... if the building happens to ever fall down around their ears... just a thought...
on a side note.. who hasn't seen an engine blow up and the announcer tells us, it was a new motor... parts fail.. even professionally... ask nascar...
[/quote]
RyuuSo is this an Endyne or Urge motor?
08-22-2014, 03:38 PM
#65
Member
Thread Starter
At this point MB should send the motor back to Urge as he should have enough info from the independent tear down to narrow down the things it could be. Data logs would have maybe helped in not having to send it back and not doing that is on him plain and simple. Hell it makes sense to have that turned on for the first run of a newly built engine to see if there is anywhere that it could be having issues. I know shipping the motor will be expensive but it seems to be the best next step in actually getting this resolved. It is still unreasonable to expect urge to cover something when they haven't had the cancel to see it themselves. No one does this. If you bought a 100k Benz and it blew up they would want to inspect the car this is no different. Work out them refunding you for shipping if it is determined it was a failure on their end and move forward as all that's is going to happen is this will just less and less civil.
Do you think they are going to cover any of the cost?
Comparing it to Mercedes isn't really valid, you have a very local dealership you can work with and it's unlikely they would query your warranty on a brand new engine.
08-22-2014, 03:42 PM
#66
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At this point any continued finger pointing is just speculation. Both sides have pointed at multiple things that could have been the reason for the failure.
At this point MB should send the motor back to Urge as he should have enough info from the independent tear down to narrow down the things it could be. Data logs would have maybe helped in not having to send it back and not doing that is on him plain and simple. Hell it makes sense to have that turned on for the first run of a newly built engine to see if there is anywhere that it could be having issues. I know shipping the motor will be expensive but it seems to be the best next step in actually getting this resolved. It is still unreasonable to expect urge to cover something when they haven't had the cancel to see it themselves. No one does this. If you bought a 100k Benz and it blew up they would want to inspect the car this is no different. Work out them refunding you for shipping if it is determined it was a failure on their end and move forward as all that's is going to happen is this will just less and less civil.
At this point MB should send the motor back to Urge as he should have enough info from the independent tear down to narrow down the things it could be. Data logs would have maybe helped in not having to send it back and not doing that is on him plain and simple. Hell it makes sense to have that turned on for the first run of a newly built engine to see if there is anywhere that it could be having issues. I know shipping the motor will be expensive but it seems to be the best next step in actually getting this resolved. It is still unreasonable to expect urge to cover something when they haven't had the cancel to see it themselves. No one does this. If you bought a 100k Benz and it blew up they would want to inspect the car this is no different. Work out them refunding you for shipping if it is determined it was a failure on their end and move forward as all that's is going to happen is this will just less and less civil.
A far more reasonable way forward would be for Urge to send some parts (crank, bearings, gasket), and MB to cover the labour. The shipping cost of the engine going one way alone negates the parts cost. There is enough evidence to suggest Urge are likely at fault.
08-22-2014, 03:46 PM
#67
Anyone who says "just send it back" at this point ought to have their head examined. If Endyn/Urge was serious about doing an inspection and helping MB out, they would've taken that stance and held it this whole time. Instead, they've been trying to blame him for EVERYTHING under the sun.. Tune, coasting through some grass, oil starvation, the intake being restrictive (that's a good one), and anything else. If they just said "please send it back to us, we'll try and help you out," things might've gone differently. All that will result now will be MB having to pay shipping there AND back, and left w/ his thumb up his butt. I think he's come to this realization after the hostile responses he got from them.
If tuning/etc was an issue, you wouldn't see a cooked main bearing in a matter of hours. Fact.
If tuning/etc was an issue, you wouldn't see a cooked main bearing in a matter of hours. Fact.
08-22-2014, 04:47 PM
#69
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08-22-2014, 05:00 PM
#70
Maybe this is crazy talk. ..but why not just ship the damage parts? That cant be too expensive.
Crank..bearings..oil pump. .pan. if nothing else was damdage, have them inspect those items.
Does the block, head, rods, pistons etc need to be inspected if they are not damaged?
Crank..bearings..oil pump. .pan. if nothing else was damdage, have them inspect those items.
Does the block, head, rods, pistons etc need to be inspected if they are not damaged?