Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-22-2014, 09:59 AM
#51
oh my.. well.. this damage has been done... your expecting professional quality work from shade tree mechanics, hobbyists, .. hmmmm.. reading some of the back an forth conversations, one question, do any one of these mechanics actually have credentials.. degrees, are engineers.. at least high school shop class... just because a guy owns the tools.. does not make him a mechanic, owning a business does not make one any more professional... now, this has made all that questionable.. and professionalism... please.. that went out the door when they re-worded / changed their warranty...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
You're saying that every time someone accuses you of something, and refuses to show you proof, you "own up to it"? That doesn't sound like a very good plan for success...
08-22-2014, 10:08 AM
#52
Originally Posted by Daytona-Dave' timestamp='1408718956' post='23297620
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1408717208' post='23297571']
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
I agree that people are going to have they're own take on how it happened but this is a tad unrealistic or more than 50% of all race cars at most race meetings would end up with a blown engine, it is after all a race engine not a stock as yours was so there fore would/should have being built to suit the challenge ahead, most tracks have rumble strips which most race drivers useSheesh ... I did NOT say that every S2000 that goes over the rumple strips will blow the motor. I said it can, and sometimes does. All you guys bashing URGE act like it's impossible that it could have failed due to oil starvation, and that URGE should just write the guy a check without even seeing the fvcking motor. Ridiculous! Damn, I'm thanking God that I never had a post like this about one of the exhaust systems...
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.
[/quote]
Whoa there mate back up a bit, I aren't bashing anyone and neither did i say every S2000, what i am saying from a long time spent in Motorsport that race engines are USUALLY build to withstand the conditions that they are to be used in, so if this engine did fail for that reason (which i find very hard to believe) then there must have being a fault with the engine, no one (I know) would buy a race engine that will go pop every time you stray from the black stuff,
08-22-2014, 10:17 AM
#53
Gernby, respectfully, I think that your opinions should be left out of this thread. You are working with and testing products for Urge, like the DBW ITB setup. It seems like a little bit of a conflict of interests to me and potentially others that read this as well. I would think that for the services that you offer on this site that you do not need to be caught up in the middle of this dispute and potentially implicated.
There are others in this thread that have also posted their personal experiences with endyn/urge and should not have. They either happened in the past or are not relevant to the current situation because the posts are not related to the situation now.
All of these posts muddy the waters as to what is actually going on.
There are others in this thread that have also posted their personal experiences with endyn/urge and should not have. They either happened in the past or are not relevant to the current situation because the posts are not related to the situation now.
All of these posts muddy the waters as to what is actually going on.
08-22-2014, 10:20 AM
#54
Sheesh ... I did NOT say that every S2000 that goes over the rumple strips will blow the motor. I said it can, and sometimes does. All you guys bashing URGE act like it's impossible that it could have failed due to oil starvation, and that URGE should just write the guy a check without even seeing the fvcking motor. Ridiculous! Damn, I'm thanking God that I never had a post like this about one of the exhaust systems...
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.
Surf the interwebs and you'll see a lot of drama surrounding Endyn. I guess everyone made up all those evil/bad stories out of thin air right? Get f*cking real. Larry/Endyn/TOO/the old one/whatever you wanna call him loves drama. As I said, I have first hand experience w/ Larry and a group of friends of mine from many years ago. I won't rehash that story, perhaps you can find it on h-t. Like I said, some of his stuff does work, but would I ever deal w/ him again? Hell no.
The guy is Mr. Hype, always has and always will be. You guys probably weren't into imports 13 yrs ago, but he had a "famous" supercharger that never materialized. I get that you've had good experiences w/ URGE/Endyn gernby, but don't confuse your experience w/ others'. I have never dealt w/ Urge fwiw, so my comments have nothing to do with them.
08-22-2014, 10:50 AM
#55
Hi Andrew,
I think the issue is, you are not expecting the engine to fail the first time you use it in anger. What you expect is as advertised, that it will last 3+ seasons before you do planned maintenance on it. So no, you dont buy it expecting to have to ship is back right in the middle of your race season. The other thing to note is that when I checked with Urge that they were going to warranty it if I sent it, they could not give assurance. Ok there are scenarios where if I'd over revved it, not mapped it correctly, this would be my fault. But I got all sorts of things pointed out which made me feel very uneasy about it. You can see from the issues with Endyn what sort of pre determined outcome there would have been, and that would set me up for a 2 way shipping bill, a repair bill and a questionable repair given what we've found.
As I said, if they had said 'look we are sorry to hear this, get it back and we will sort it' I would have. This wasn't the way it went.
Honestly what I want now, is a new crank / pump / bearings / gasket. Labour I will take on the chin. What id like even more is a full refund, I send the engine back, and get away from this mess. Clearly the latter is not going to happen.
The race footage is a very typical race situation. This is my 3rd year racing, and my old engine took 2 full seasons with zero issues. If an engine of this spec can't take a kerb, or some revs at low rpm then I'm sorry but it's not fit for purpose.
This 'on track incident' is not something you can take seriously. Any racer will tell you that and it should be ignored as a distraction.
I think the issue is, you are not expecting the engine to fail the first time you use it in anger. What you expect is as advertised, that it will last 3+ seasons before you do planned maintenance on it. So no, you dont buy it expecting to have to ship is back right in the middle of your race season. The other thing to note is that when I checked with Urge that they were going to warranty it if I sent it, they could not give assurance. Ok there are scenarios where if I'd over revved it, not mapped it correctly, this would be my fault. But I got all sorts of things pointed out which made me feel very uneasy about it. You can see from the issues with Endyn what sort of pre determined outcome there would have been, and that would set me up for a 2 way shipping bill, a repair bill and a questionable repair given what we've found.
As I said, if they had said 'look we are sorry to hear this, get it back and we will sort it' I would have. This wasn't the way it went.
Honestly what I want now, is a new crank / pump / bearings / gasket. Labour I will take on the chin. What id like even more is a full refund, I send the engine back, and get away from this mess. Clearly the latter is not going to happen.
The race footage is a very typical race situation. This is my 3rd year racing, and my old engine took 2 full seasons with zero issues. If an engine of this spec can't take a kerb, or some revs at low rpm then I'm sorry but it's not fit for purpose.
This 'on track incident' is not something you can take seriously. Any racer will tell you that and it should be ignored as a distraction.
It ABSOLUTELY cannot be ignored as a distraction when the engine was running perfectly fine until 6 seconds after the incident. I am with you in that it definitely seems like the engine should be able to handle a bit of a bog down and a hop over some curbs. But there are so many variables, sometimes the biggest incidents result it little to know damage, sometimes the little ones can cause big problems because the right things align to mess things up.
Again nobody is going to warranty a racing engine sight unseen. Not Spoon, not J's, not ASM, not Toda, and mostly definitely not Honda. Maybe it's not on the table now, but maybe it would be cheaper to have the URGE/Endyn guys travel to the UK to help diagnose and resolve the problem, partnering with a local engine builder to use their facilities?
Again I hope you are able to get things resolved in a way that you are happy with in the end.
08-22-2014, 11:04 AM
#57
Originally Posted by Ryuu' timestamp='1408725160' post='23297830
oh my.. well.. this damage has been done... your expecting professional quality work from shade tree mechanics, hobbyists, .. hmmmm.. reading some of the back an forth conversations, one question, do any one of these mechanics actually have credentials.. degrees, are engineers.. at least high school shop class... just because a guy owns the tools.. does not make him a mechanic, owning a business does not make one any more professional... now, this has made all that questionable.. and professionalism... please.. that went out the door when they re-worded / changed their warranty...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
You're saying that every time someone accuses you of something, and refuses to show you proof, you "own up to it"? That doesn't sound like a very good plan for success...
in this event.. I have seen an offer to send, no offer to support, a retract of the too send and a regrouping of who is this one guy dealing with cause their personality changed.. and now.. we're at the.. a second party has determined.. well, second parties determine stuff all the time for clients who have questions.. and up to date, we've got No one's to blame...
believe me, if I structurally engineer a building, an shave off some of those odd supporting counter weighted thingys cause I think it'll be ok... they're gonna be blaming myasssss and it's serious jail time... if the building happens to ever fall down around their ears... just a thought...
on a side note.. who hasn't seen an engine blow up and the announcer tells us, it was a new motor... parts fail.. even professionally... ask nascar...
08-22-2014, 12:25 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by andrewhake' timestamp='1408705964' post='23297348
Sorry to hear about the failure. 
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
On another note, I realize that most people would look at that video of MB's off-track excursion as no big deal, and would immediately dismiss it as a possible cause for the engine failure. However, I truly believe that it was the cause for the failure, since the same thing happened to my motor in 2010. The significant differences between my experience and MB's are that: I was going slower, I was going in a straight line, My motor was stock, and I did have a datalog. Everything else about my engine failure was pretty much spot on with what happened to MB.
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
When this happened to me, I was just 8 minutes into my first track session at an HPDE. The track had just gone green, when I picked up my pace (on cold street tires), and wound up over-cooking it into a tight S-curve. I wound up shooting straight over the first part of the S, similar to what MB did. Nothing got scratched, dented, or dirtied (except my underpants). Since it was an HPDE, I knew that I was required to exit the course to chat with the lead instructor, so I was going to finish that lap at 80%. However, I immediately noticed that VTEC was not engaging consistently. It kept kicking in and out of VTEC as I accellerated. After a few seconds of this, I backed WAY OFF of the throttle, so I could limp it back. However, by then I was hearing rod knock, and feeling vibration in my clutch pedal. When I got back to the pits, I shut it down, and checked the oil level. It "had a healthy oil level" about mid-way between Lo and Hi. There were no scratches on anything under the car, not even a clump of grass or dirt.
When I broke out the laptop, and downloaded the FlashPro datalog, I saw that the ECU thought VTEC was engaging fine. However, I could see that after the off-track excursion, the AF would bounce back and forth between perfect and off-the-scale rich as the revs climbed while it thought VTEC was engaged. It was clearly not building enough oil pressure to engage the locking pins. In the end, I had to get a new short block.
Note again, that I am a separate vendor from URGE. He has his business, and I have mine. I'm just posting this, because I am absolutely disappointed in MB for this thread. I think a moderator should know better.
Secondly, there would be these kind of failures posted several times a day if that kind of ride over a rumble strip instantly causes failure of an F2X motor.
Thirdly, anyone has the right to start a thread about their experiences with vendors and / or motor failures, thats how people learn, by reading forums.
08-22-2014, 12:53 PM
#59
Ive jumped my S2000 literally a thousand times. My first engine lasted 88,000 miles.
I call massive BS on the kerb jump theory.
I do see both sides, ENdyn/Urge want to inspect their own motor and offer repair at their rates. BUT no way should MB have been asked to pay up for postage, regardless of how negligent he was believed to be.
17k.
Not exactly a cheapy. Id expect a lot more customer care for that.
I call massive BS on the kerb jump theory.
I do see both sides, ENdyn/Urge want to inspect their own motor and offer repair at their rates. BUT no way should MB have been asked to pay up for postage, regardless of how negligent he was believed to be.
17k.
Not exactly a cheapy. Id expect a lot more customer care for that.
08-22-2014, 01:24 PM
#60
I wouldn't call massive BS. Not saying it is or isn't. I was surprised to get fuel starve from jumping a "curb" on track with half a tank of fuel. 99% of people get that from high G turn. I wasn't even turning.
Either way, this whole thing sucks.
Either way, this whole thing sucks.