Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-22-2014, 07:12 AM
#41
Because the AFR is bouncing around a little that means a completely incompetent tuner and a bad tune that likely damaged the engine? Please.. Then there's the notion of the off track "incident"/accident. Gernby, I'm not sure what happened in your case, but I've seen s2k's at the track hit curbs/have off track excursions, and they're still running today. My car included.
I was in a similar situation last year after another highly regarded shop built my motor. It didn't even last an entire season. When I had my local engine builder tear it down, we found some questionable work by the original builder. After speaking to them about the issue, the blame was turned back to me. Would rather not get into details, but we had a lot of evidence pointing the failure resulting from a low quality item which broke.
The unfortunate thing here, is that these shops act infallible. And sorry to say, but Endyn is definitely no Hasselgren when it comes to motors, and really has no reputation to be using that stance. Warranty or no warranty, there is a reasonable expectation. Paying $17K for an engine suggests that the motor was built properly by competent people. As a business owner myself, I always work with customers. If I'm selling a service, I know that once in awhile, we get it wrong. It is much cheaper and easier for me to just suck it up, and accommodate the customer, even if I disagree with them. In the long run, a tarnished reputation will cost me 10 fold.
08-22-2014, 07:19 AM
#42
Wow Gernby...... I guess I should buy a Camry.
being a few thousands miles away. I don't think MB is asking for much. Urge/Endyn built 97 motors and this is their 2ed to not end so hot? why wouldn't they go above and beyond to make it better... Shit, I would.
$17,000 is a lot of money to lose at the drop of that hat. id be furious if I was MB.
being a few thousands miles away. I don't think MB is asking for much. Urge/Endyn built 97 motors and this is their 2ed to not end so hot? why wouldn't they go above and beyond to make it better... Shit, I would.
$17,000 is a lot of money to lose at the drop of that hat. id be furious if I was MB.
08-22-2014, 07:21 AM
#43
08-22-2014, 07:32 AM
#44
Who knows what happened, but I guess what surprises me most is that $17k does not buy a bit more respect, credibility, and potentially flexibility. If someone is forking over $17k for an engine and then have it shipped to the UK I would think it should be assumed they are more than just the average Joe. And when the said engine blows, I would think the response would be more along the lines of "crap, what can we do to help", as opposed to trying to find fault with every step the guy made, look at anything close enough and you can always find something.
I do agree that a business should not be EXPECTED to do what MB was maybe asking, but that does not mean they shouldn't have anyway. They took a potential opportunity to expand into a new UK market by getting their product in the hands of what seems to me as not your average enthusiast, and not only did they ruin that opportunity, they damaged their reputation elsewhere. Because no matter how this situation is spun, they won't be gaining business, in they days of google all it takes is one search to deter a perspective buyer. Regardless of the situation a good company is one that takes a step back and evaluates the entire situation and potential outcome and makes the best decision with the highest probability of creating a positive outcome for the company. Sometimes that isn't the best outcome (i.e. rebuilding and engine that you don't feel your business should be accountable for), but it sure as hell won't end up damaging the reputation of your company, in fact many times putting yourself out there does quite the opposite. Just my take if we want to talk "business"
I do agree that a business should not be EXPECTED to do what MB was maybe asking, but that does not mean they shouldn't have anyway. They took a potential opportunity to expand into a new UK market by getting their product in the hands of what seems to me as not your average enthusiast, and not only did they ruin that opportunity, they damaged their reputation elsewhere. Because no matter how this situation is spun, they won't be gaining business, in they days of google all it takes is one search to deter a perspective buyer. Regardless of the situation a good company is one that takes a step back and evaluates the entire situation and potential outcome and makes the best decision with the highest probability of creating a positive outcome for the company. Sometimes that isn't the best outcome (i.e. rebuilding and engine that you don't feel your business should be accountable for), but it sure as hell won't end up damaging the reputation of your company, in fact many times putting yourself out there does quite the opposite. Just my take if we want to talk "business"
08-22-2014, 07:43 AM
#45
08-22-2014, 07:56 AM
#46
Who knows what happened, but I guess what surprises me most is that $17k does not buy a bit more respect, credibility, and potentially flexibility. If someone is forking over $17k for an engine and then have it shipped to the UK I would think it should be assumed they are more than just the average Joe. And when the said engine blows, I would think the response would be more along the lines of "crap, what can we do to help", as opposed to trying to find fault with every step the guy made, look at anything close enough and you can always find something.
Regardless of who's fault it is, creating a post with lame explanations is the LAST thing you want to do. On top of that, trying to be a bit accomodative and not coming across as a prick is the minimum professionalism I'd expect. We're not talking about an engine that died after months/years, but a couple hours. Anyway, I won't clog this thread up anymore. The drama surrounding Endyn is old news to many folks. Google is your friend.
08-22-2014, 08:13 AM
#47
If the folks at Endyne are still following this, which I am sure they are, it isn't too late. It seems MB started this in a last ditch effort to get some sort of resolution. Sure it may take swallowing a bit of pride and some $, but this CAN still have a happy ending.
Anyone recall the debacle that Specialized Bikes pulled out of, when they went after a small business owner for trademark infringement? I didn't think it was possible, but somehow they pulled out of that nightmare. And IMO that was the perfect example of a company swallowing their pride and doing something they really didn't have to do, for the betterment of their business (or more accurately the end the shit storm).
Anyone recall the debacle that Specialized Bikes pulled out of, when they went after a small business owner for trademark infringement? I didn't think it was possible, but somehow they pulled out of that nightmare. And IMO that was the perfect example of a company swallowing their pride and doing something they really didn't have to do, for the betterment of their business (or more accurately the end the shit storm).
08-22-2014, 08:32 AM
#48
oh my.. well.. this damage has been done... your expecting professional quality work from shade tree mechanics, hobbyists, .. hmmmm.. reading some of the back an forth conversations, one question, do any one of these mechanics actually have credentials.. degrees, are engineers.. at least high school shop class... just because a guy owns the tools.. does not make him a mechanic, owning a business does not make one any more professional... now, this has made all that questionable.. and professionalism... please.. that went out the door when they re-worded / changed their warranty...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
as a professional with credentials and degrees, an accountable for my work.. there have been plenty of times it all didn't work out perfectly.. and I had to eat my mistakes.. that's what a professional does.. owns up.. good luck with this... hate to see good reps trashed, but, also, hate even worse watching a bad mistake in engineering being written off as someone else's fault through shady means...
08-22-2014, 09:13 AM
#49
Its sad to me to see that after the entire in-depth response by Patrick (Urge) disproving all of the many accusations towards the shop about why the engine failed, everyone completely disregards this information and jumps to the conclusion that "Theres no way that offing on the track like that caused the engine failure."
Endyn / Urge are giving the best conclusion they have, with the data they were provided. It's very possible their explanation would change if they were given the opportunity to obtain more data, aka inspect the engine. However the OP is just deciding that it is too much money to take the risk of shipping the engine to Texas for Endyn to make a more informed conclusion and that conclusion end up being that it wasn't their fault.
As every one knows, $17k is a lot of money, for the shop and for the customer. It would be very irresponsible for either party to happily hand this amount of money away without drawing their own, informed decisions about the topic.
Unfortunately the OP is at a disadvantage due to his location, but this is a risk you assume by having a shop build your engine who is half way around the world.
This incident won't dissuade me from going to Endyn for any future needs, however this incident DOES give me new perspective about having expensive jobs done by someone who isn't local to me. So I thank you for shedding light on the unfortunate circumstances that can arise by having a non-local shop do work like this.
Endyn / Urge are giving the best conclusion they have, with the data they were provided. It's very possible their explanation would change if they were given the opportunity to obtain more data, aka inspect the engine. However the OP is just deciding that it is too much money to take the risk of shipping the engine to Texas for Endyn to make a more informed conclusion and that conclusion end up being that it wasn't their fault.
As every one knows, $17k is a lot of money, for the shop and for the customer. It would be very irresponsible for either party to happily hand this amount of money away without drawing their own, informed decisions about the topic.
Unfortunately the OP is at a disadvantage due to his location, but this is a risk you assume by having a shop build your engine who is half way around the world.
This incident won't dissuade me from going to Endyn for any future needs, however this incident DOES give me new perspective about having expensive jobs done by someone who isn't local to me. So I thank you for shedding light on the unfortunate circumstances that can arise by having a non-local shop do work like this.
08-22-2014, 09:54 AM
#50
Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1408717208' post='23297571
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
I agree that people are going to have they're own take on how it happened but this is a tad unrealistic or more than 50% of all race cars at most race meetings would end up with a blown engine, it is after all a race engine not a stock as yours was so there fore would/should have being built to suit the challenge ahead, most tracks have rumble strips which most race drivers useSheesh ... I did NOT say that every S2000 that goes over the rumple strips will blow the motor. I said it can, and sometimes does. All you guys bashing URGE act like it's impossible that it could have failed due to oil starvation, and that URGE should just write the guy a check without even seeing the fvcking motor. Ridiculous! Damn, I'm thanking God that I never had a post like this about one of the exhaust systems...
It's shameful how the internet loves to hurt good people and good businesses whenever some A-hole comes up with a sad story.