Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-22-2014, 12:56 AM
#31
Let's just hope that they do put things right.From what I've read and knowing the competence of Mark I know where I would put the blame.
I pretty much got the same response when my engine failed.....It was everybody's fault except them.The one thing in my favour as in Mark's is that a competent person had done the setting up and initial startup.
I've said it before but I was lucky in the fact I was dealing with Kings and Fernando in particular.
Nobody need this kind of issue when dealing with a large expensive item like an engine, shipping back and forth alone is in the £1500 region.
Over here we are at somewhat of a disadvantage because of a lack of engine builders, so going to the States is pretty much our only option.Even considering that Fernando Rebuilt my engine and paid for shipping both ways I think I'm still the best part of £4000 out of pocket, although I can recoup some of that by reselling the stock engine.I still have to do an engine swap, I have the tools to do it but it's still hard work.
I've had issues with Fernando in the past but if the only option is to buy from the States I would have no problems going back to him.Actions speak louder than words and I think I've been lucky and chose the right person to deal with.
I pretty much got the same response when my engine failed.....It was everybody's fault except them.The one thing in my favour as in Mark's is that a competent person had done the setting up and initial startup.
I've said it before but I was lucky in the fact I was dealing with Kings and Fernando in particular.
Nobody need this kind of issue when dealing with a large expensive item like an engine, shipping back and forth alone is in the £1500 region.
Over here we are at somewhat of a disadvantage because of a lack of engine builders, so going to the States is pretty much our only option.Even considering that Fernando Rebuilt my engine and paid for shipping both ways I think I'm still the best part of £4000 out of pocket, although I can recoup some of that by reselling the stock engine.I still have to do an engine swap, I have the tools to do it but it's still hard work.
I've had issues with Fernando in the past but if the only option is to buy from the States I would have no problems going back to him.Actions speak louder than words and I think I've been lucky and chose the right person to deal with.
08-22-2014, 01:06 AM
#33
unnaceptable response from urge on this one imo.
no way a slight bump should cause an engine failure, and if it did, surely thats the engine builders problem not yours? how on earth is any engine not meant to survive that, that cannot be blamed for a total bottom end failure.
no way a slight bump should cause an engine failure, and if it did, surely thats the engine builders problem not yours? how on earth is any engine not meant to survive that, that cannot be blamed for a total bottom end failure.
08-22-2014, 01:29 AM
#34
So what about that accident?
So after 10 weeks of back and forth, the customer never mentioned they were involved in an off track accident seconds before the engine blew. This video was presented to me by the co-onwer of URGE designs and replayed 20+ times to confirm timelines. In video, the car went off track at 7:36 and back on at 7:37 at 45 MPH. 6 seconds later at 7:43 the motor starts buzzing. At the end of the straight by 7:57, 20 seconds after the off, the engine is clearly down on power and the customer is no longer racing aggressively.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NL0dxuAYWGE#t=43 6[/media]
I highly doubt this is an extreme coincidence? After 4-5 hours of dyno time on our dyno where we have conducted 10+ full dyno pulls, holding the engine at various RPMs for minutes, including 9000 PRM, then going through 2 different dyno sessions and re-tunes with the customer, then qualifying, then 4 laps, then an accident and THEN the motor fails?
If the bearings were bad or if there was a problem with the crank it would have failed on our dyno, with in a few minutes, not after hours of dyno time and then immediately after an off track excursion.
The reason why the bearings are destroyed and look they way they do is the customer stayed on track 2 minutes after the motor failed. More than a minute of that there was little to no oil pressure.
So after 10 weeks of back and forth, the customer never mentioned they were involved in an off track accident seconds before the engine blew. This video was presented to me by the co-onwer of URGE designs and replayed 20+ times to confirm timelines. In video, the car went off track at 7:36 and back on at 7:37 at 45 MPH. 6 seconds later at 7:43 the motor starts buzzing. At the end of the straight by 7:57, 20 seconds after the off, the engine is clearly down on power and the customer is no longer racing aggressively.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NL0dxuAYWGE#t=43 6[/media]
I highly doubt this is an extreme coincidence? After 4-5 hours of dyno time on our dyno where we have conducted 10+ full dyno pulls, holding the engine at various RPMs for minutes, including 9000 PRM, then going through 2 different dyno sessions and re-tunes with the customer, then qualifying, then 4 laps, then an accident and THEN the motor fails?
If the bearings were bad or if there was a problem with the crank it would have failed on our dyno, with in a few minutes, not after hours of dyno time and then immediately after an off track excursion.
The reason why the bearings are destroyed and look they way they do is the customer stayed on track 2 minutes after the motor failed. More than a minute of that there was little to no oil pressure.
I'd better watch out for my engine going pop then as I had a small accident in June when an Audi ran into me denting my front fender
08-22-2014, 03:12 AM
#35
Sorry to hear about the failure. 
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
08-22-2014, 03:34 AM
#36
Member
Thread Starter
Hi Andrew,
I think the issue is, you are not expecting the engine to fail the first time you use it in anger. What you expect is as advertised, that it will last 3+ seasons before you do planned maintenance on it. So no, you dont buy it expecting to have to ship is back right in the middle of your race season. The other thing to note is that when I checked with Urge that they were going to warranty it if I sent it, they could not give assurance. Ok there are scenarios where if I'd over revved it, not mapped it correctly, this would be my fault. But I got all sorts of things pointed out which made me feel very uneasy about it. You can see from the issues with Endyn what sort of pre determined outcome there would have been, and that would set me up for a 2 way shipping bill, a repair bill and a questionable repair given what we've found.
As I said, if they had said 'look we are sorry to hear this, get it back and we will sort it' I would have. This wasn't the way it went.
Honestly what I want now, is a new crank / pump / bearings / gasket. Labour I will take on the chin. What id like even more is a full refund, I send the engine back, and get away from this mess. Clearly the latter is not going to happen.
The race footage is a very typical race situation. This is my 3rd year racing, and my old engine took 2 full seasons with zero issues. If an engine of this spec can't take a kerb, or some revs at low rpm then I'm sorry but it's not fit for purpose.
This 'on track incident' is not something you can take seriously. Any racer will tell you that and it should be ignored as a distraction.
I think the issue is, you are not expecting the engine to fail the first time you use it in anger. What you expect is as advertised, that it will last 3+ seasons before you do planned maintenance on it. So no, you dont buy it expecting to have to ship is back right in the middle of your race season. The other thing to note is that when I checked with Urge that they were going to warranty it if I sent it, they could not give assurance. Ok there are scenarios where if I'd over revved it, not mapped it correctly, this would be my fault. But I got all sorts of things pointed out which made me feel very uneasy about it. You can see from the issues with Endyn what sort of pre determined outcome there would have been, and that would set me up for a 2 way shipping bill, a repair bill and a questionable repair given what we've found.
As I said, if they had said 'look we are sorry to hear this, get it back and we will sort it' I would have. This wasn't the way it went.
Honestly what I want now, is a new crank / pump / bearings / gasket. Labour I will take on the chin. What id like even more is a full refund, I send the engine back, and get away from this mess. Clearly the latter is not going to happen.
The race footage is a very typical race situation. This is my 3rd year racing, and my old engine took 2 full seasons with zero issues. If an engine of this spec can't take a kerb, or some revs at low rpm then I'm sorry but it's not fit for purpose.
This 'on track incident' is not something you can take seriously. Any racer will tell you that and it should be ignored as a distraction.
08-22-2014, 03:46 AM
#37
Fit for purpose seems to be the issue ..... however for any future buyer, i doubt many would be happy to spend this much cash with an overseas supplier - if it all goes tits you are geographically fecked. Looks to me like those suppliers are willing to stand behind their product in name only.
From a stats perspective, 30 'good' engines is way insufficient to say that everything is reliable.
From a stats perspective, 30 'good' engines is way insufficient to say that everything is reliable.
08-22-2014, 06:20 AM
#38
Sorry to hear about the failure.
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
Sorry but I think it is a completely acceptable response from Urge in my opinion. With a very complete picture of how the engine was built.
"No company in the world will let a customer self diagnose their product failure with conflicting causes, let the customer repair the product themselves and pay a bill provided by the customer which is what the customer has asked us to do."
As simple as this really. What do you expect them to do if you aren't willing to send the engine in for inspection? Pay for you to have the engine rebuilt by someone else? Send you a new engine? I fully understand it being very expensive to ship the engine back but that is part of the decision of having an engine built by someone in a different country isn't it? It would be no different if you purchased an engine from Toda in Japan, or any other shop in the U.S. or U.K. All of them would expect to be able to inspect the engine. Shipping the engine likely could have been avoided if data logs were available I would imagine. And I would imagine if they determined the failed intake manifold runner to be the cause of the issue, they would have gladly covered repair costs, but with an on track accident the picture sort of changes. Especially if you failed to mention the engine failed 6 seconds after an on track incident. This is a very different situation if the engine was build and shipped blind, with no engine dyno testing and individual calibrated crank balancing, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Because I am interested in what might have caused the engine to fail, how bad is it (if at all) for the engine to be bogged down in low rpm at full throttle for an extended period of time under lateral load, as it was in the video with the mis-shift before the on track collision? This isn't something that would greatly effect a normal F20/F22C but possibly would effect a more precisely tuned racing engine? Could be completely wrong as I am no engineer but I do remember many occurrences this year in F1 of engineers telling drivers to avoid relying on the low rpm torque of this years power unit as it puts unnecessary strain on the engine.
Best of luck with the rebuild and in future racing.
On another note, I realize that most people would look at that video of MB's off-track excursion as no big deal, and would immediately dismiss it as a possible cause for the engine failure. However, I truly believe that it was the cause for the failure, since the same thing happened to my motor in 2010. The significant differences between my experience and MB's are that: I was going slower, I was going in a straight line, My motor was stock, and I did have a datalog. Everything else about my engine failure was pretty much spot on with what happened to MB.
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
When this happened to me, I was just 8 minutes into my first track session at an HPDE. The track had just gone green, when I picked up my pace (on cold street tires), and wound up over-cooking it into a tight S-curve. I wound up shooting straight over the first part of the S, similar to what MB did. Nothing got scratched, dented, or dirtied (except my underpants). Since it was an HPDE, I knew that I was required to exit the course to chat with the lead instructor, so I was going to finish that lap at 80%. However, I immediately noticed that VTEC was not engaging consistently. It kept kicking in and out of VTEC as I accellerated. After a few seconds of this, I backed WAY OFF of the throttle, so I could limp it back. However, by then I was hearing rod knock, and feeling vibration in my clutch pedal. When I got back to the pits, I shut it down, and checked the oil level. It "had a healthy oil level" about mid-way between Lo and Hi. There were no scratches on anything under the car, not even a clump of grass or dirt.
When I broke out the laptop, and downloaded the FlashPro datalog, I saw that the ECU thought VTEC was engaging fine. However, I could see that after the off-track excursion, the AF would bounce back and forth between perfect and off-the-scale rich as the revs climbed while it thought VTEC was engaged. It was clearly not building enough oil pressure to engage the locking pins. In the end, I had to get a new short block.
Note again, that I am a separate vendor from URGE. He has his business, and I have mine. I'm just posting this, because I am absolutely disappointed in MB for this thread. I think a moderator should know better.
08-22-2014, 06:49 AM
#39
Here is what I think happened. As is well documented, the F2XC has a tendency to collect a lot of oil in the head and valve cover. This naturally drops the level of oil in the sump. It also has a well documented history of losing plenty of oil to the catch can with high lateral acceleration. I think that most of the track junkies here would all agree that a dedicated track car should have some sort of dry sump or accusump to make sure that these things don't result in oil starvation. I also think they would agree that if they don't have a setup like that, then the oil level should be *at or above* the "Hi" level mark on the dip stick (while warm) before entering the track (basically somewhat overfilled). As MB stated on page 1, "It was not over or underfilled. In fact even after the failure the car has a healthy oil level." Well, when you combine all these things with a definite weightless moment (as it jumps the curb), it's not unlikely that the oil pump would get a big gulp of air. It's also possible that it could take a second or two for the pump to prime itself again.
I agree that people are going to have they're own take on how it happened but this is a tad unrealistic or more than 50% of all race cars at most race meetings would end up with a blown engine, it is after all a race engine not a stock as yours was so there fore would/should have being built to suit the challenge ahead, most tracks have rumble strips which most race drivers use
08-22-2014, 06:54 AM
#40
Not shocked at all from Larry's response. 
Because the AFR is bouncing around a little that means a completely incompetent tuner and a bad tune that likely damaged the engine? Please.. Then there's the notion of the off track "incident"/accident. Gernby, I'm not sure what happened in your case, but I've seen s2k's at the track hit curbs/have off track excursions, and they're still running today. My car included.
Could the motor have been low on oil? That's a possibility. Certainly.. Ultimately though, having dealt with Endyn over 10 years ago where a friend got ultimately the same response from Larry, tough luck, I'd be wary dealing with them.
If people want to read more stories about Larry/Endyn, one merely needs to visit old threads from honda-tech. Clearly the guy can/does do some good work, but the drama surrounding Endyn exists for a reason.
Because the AFR is bouncing around a little that means a completely incompetent tuner and a bad tune that likely damaged the engine? Please.. Then there's the notion of the off track "incident"/accident. Gernby, I'm not sure what happened in your case, but I've seen s2k's at the track hit curbs/have off track excursions, and they're still running today. My car included.
Could the motor have been low on oil? That's a possibility. Certainly.. Ultimately though, having dealt with Endyn over 10 years ago where a friend got ultimately the same response from Larry, tough luck, I'd be wary dealing with them.
If people want to read more stories about Larry/Endyn, one merely needs to visit old threads from honda-tech. Clearly the guy can/does do some good work, but the drama surrounding Endyn exists for a reason.