Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-28-2014, 01:45 PM
#171
Member
Thread Starter
Deffo not the manifold. If debris from it had got in, it would show on the bores. My whole top end is fine. The crack is the first thing I saw when I came into the pits, so one thought was that metal from behind it had come away.
This is 100% a bottom end failure.
This is 100% a bottom end failure.
08-28-2014, 03:02 PM
#172
Banned
you can put a 4 inch hole in the intake manifold and the car will run fine. Cars run based on map pressure, a hole changes map pressure so the ecu will add the right amount of fuel. As for metal getting in the motor, a little aluminum from the intake manifold wont cause a catastrophic bearing failure like that
08-28-2014, 03:03 PM
#173
Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by andrewhake' timestamp='1409198484' post='23305227
[quote name='MB' timestamp='1409180355' post='23304913']
As i've said, I do not believe this kerb theory, and what is also very key is that even if it was that - the engine must be extremely delicate and not up to the job. Anyway, i'm not buying it. The extent of the bearing damage would not happen in a split second, nor the few second after. That has happened over time, albeit not a long time. A theory needs some backup behind it. I'm posting the bearing pics again just as a reminder.
I was pleased to get some info from Genrby on it, but the insinuation that i'm an 'asshole' was uncalled for. I agree on the points made by others RE Gernby's failure. I'd be interested to see some more info and pictures of the bearings though.
My bearings were analysed by Mahle's F1 analysis guy (that's the level of people my engine builder works with) and his first question was 'i'm guessing this is from a 700 bhp turbo engine?' He was shocked to hear it was from a 320hp NA engine. He nor my builder had seen a bearing so battered by fatigue. All 3 layers are gone in most places. I don't have a formal report, but what I may do is ask for a written report to satisfy the doubters.
As i've said, I do not believe this kerb theory, and what is also very key is that even if it was that - the engine must be extremely delicate and not up to the job. Anyway, i'm not buying it. The extent of the bearing damage would not happen in a split second, nor the few second after. That has happened over time, albeit not a long time. A theory needs some backup behind it. I'm posting the bearing pics again just as a reminder.
I was pleased to get some info from Genrby on it, but the insinuation that i'm an 'asshole' was uncalled for. I agree on the points made by others RE Gernby's failure. I'd be interested to see some more info and pictures of the bearings though.
My bearings were analysed by Mahle's F1 analysis guy (that's the level of people my engine builder works with) and his first question was 'i'm guessing this is from a 700 bhp turbo engine?' He was shocked to hear it was from a 320hp NA engine. He nor my builder had seen a bearing so battered by fatigue. All 3 layers are gone in most places. I don't have a formal report, but what I may do is ask for a written report to satisfy the doubters.
What about the crank or bearings do you think were not assembled or balanced properly? From Endyns point of view, what might they have done that would result in the bottom end failure? That doesn't really seem to be addressed yet, didn't they provide balancing information for your particular engine?
Just curious as I really have no idea.
Why are the big end bearings fine then? Surely they would go too if the theory is that driving it to the pits destroyed the main bearings. Mahle didnt say this - they said they were all fatigued. If it was as the result of wear metal circulating, I think they would have noted it. All 3 layers of bearing metal have gone.
I really think anyone commenting on the technicalities needs to fully read the evidence and have some technical expertise.
The theory on the failure from my guy is due to the amount shaved from the counterweights as per 1st post. I'm not an expert on that, but when you speak with him (and I have no allegiance with him and vice versa - ie he'd say if it was my fault) he has a convincing argument given the way they have failed.
Regarding me driving to the pits after it failed, they key is, the engine failed long before that so it was already broken. It had gone below 10 psi and started buzzing - I backed off as soon as that happened. So ok, I had to get it back to the pits, but it was already dead (and that's not my fault)
I don't feel any need to defend myself, but I have still not yet heard of 1 plausable theory how installing the engine and driving it could have caused this failure.
I really think anyone commenting on the technicalities needs to fully read the evidence and have some technical expertise.
The theory on the failure from my guy is due to the amount shaved from the counterweights as per 1st post. I'm not an expert on that, but when you speak with him (and I have no allegiance with him and vice versa - ie he'd say if it was my fault) he has a convincing argument given the way they have failed.
Regarding me driving to the pits after it failed, they key is, the engine failed long before that so it was already broken. It had gone below 10 psi and started buzzing - I backed off as soon as that happened. So ok, I had to get it back to the pits, but it was already dead (and that's not my fault)
I don't feel any need to defend myself, but I have still not yet heard of 1 plausable theory how installing the engine and driving it could have caused this failure.
[/quote]
Im always a little wary of someone with a post count of 2, however I will get the rod bearing pics up later.
As for how much more damage was done? None imo. The pistons, liners, head, rods are all fine. Just the main bearings. The engine had already failed at that point. Also, not sure if you race but there are safe times to pull over and safe places. Silverstone is a good place for run off, but initially I couldn't see a good opportunity. I had already missed the pit entry so decided to coast it back.
08-28-2014, 03:07 PM
#174
Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by andrewhake' timestamp='1409250189' post='23306196
[quote name='06Estukay' timestamp='1409236558' post='23305721']
Any response from Endyne or Urge yet?
Any response from Endyne or Urge yet?
Something else I should have made clear in my posts. I don't think the curb hop is likely what damaged the engine, I just think it shouldn't be ruled out due to when the engine failed and should be considered. I believe it is perfectly possible to damage an engine in a scenario like this but severe bottom end damage? I didn't realize certain people were so adamant that this was exactly why the engine failed so I definitely understand some of the comments.
Something i may have missed. Why is it ruled out that the intake manifold failure isn't responsible for the damage? Once it had failed, wouldn't this have drastically altered the airflow coming into the engine? I suppose one would expect more head damage but a intake manifold failing with the car at full throttle can't be good.
In the same way it is possible to hop a curb and get unbelievably unlucky and have something fail, it seems perfectly possible for an intake manifold failure to result in catastrophic engine failure I would think.
I meant, any new responses since the original.
[/quote]
None. It's very clear they aren't interested in asssiting.
08-28-2014, 03:13 PM
#175
Member
Thread Starter
This is one of the few post i did here, but i think there's some things i cant understand.
I dont give the reason to Urge or to MB, i understand both sides BUT what is the real question here?? what are we trying to do?? Judge?? find the guilty?? blame and shame on URGE?? Helping MB to get back the money??
there's 7 pages, and i still cant find the objective of everyone that had post here.
I dont give the reason to Urge or to MB, i understand both sides BUT what is the real question here?? what are we trying to do?? Judge?? find the guilty?? blame and shame on URGE?? Helping MB to get back the money??
there's 7 pages, and i still cant find the objective of everyone that had post here.
1) To ensure someone else doesn't end up in the same situation. This is what the community is for. I know there are others who have bought engines and they need to be clear on the warranty stance and this failure. I am not scared to speak up about this.
2) To get an objective view from the forum on the situation. I think this is clear and i'm very grateful for the input and support. I was told I wouldn't get much sympathy!
3) To see if there was any technical view from some of the engine guys on here. I suspect most don't want to get involved, which is telling imo.
4) Slim hope that Urge would see the light and offer up some sort of compensation
Most of those have been covered, except Urge still have all their money and I have a dead engine and a repair bill and very good reason to be pissed off.
I will close this shortly as there's not much more to add. I will update with rod pics and on how the repair goes.
Thanks again to the community here for input on both sides
08-28-2014, 05:56 PM
#176
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I have years of experience as an engine technican, and competent on basic physics. It's my opinion, that yes jumping the car could cause engine failure. The timeframe could be coinicdental, however I'd be skeptical. I do think a customer that spends $17k could at least get the company to ship the engine back for inspection. You made your profit and upon inspection you would or would not warranty the engine. I personally think it's wise to improve your oil system if you're going to be driving in that manner otherwise you're simply risking it. A risk, meaning it may never happen to some and well, we've seen the result (in other cases) of not upgrading the oil supply.
08-28-2014, 06:04 PM
#177
Member
Thread Starter
Did you see the footage? That was a very smooth kerb. The wheel and my head barely even moved.
I could probably go into my Racelogic and show the G readings in slow motion, but you can see it doesnt even move.
If you jump, as in wheels off the ground, I could understand. The engine should be able to take what I did, or its not fit for racing.
Non issue IMO and i'm amazed its still being discussed or even been suggested. If that's the cause, the enigne simply is not fit for purpose.
Edit - I've closed this for now as I think it's run it's course. Will update at some point soon. I've just had the repair bill in at $5800 for new crank, bearings, hone, seals, head gasket, balance assembly and labour.
$5800... To rebuild a new engine.
I could probably go into my Racelogic and show the G readings in slow motion, but you can see it doesnt even move.
If you jump, as in wheels off the ground, I could understand. The engine should be able to take what I did, or its not fit for racing.
Non issue IMO and i'm amazed its still being discussed or even been suggested. If that's the cause, the enigne simply is not fit for purpose.
Edit - I've closed this for now as I think it's run it's course. Will update at some point soon. I've just had the repair bill in at $5800 for new crank, bearings, hone, seals, head gasket, balance assembly and labour.
$5800... To rebuild a new engine.
12-04-2014, 01:53 PM
#178
Member
Thread Starter
I'm sure a couple of people replied to this, but seem to have been deleted.
Anyway just to update, the engine is looking extremely good and is now back in the car and running nicely. Some pics below as I know we all like shiny pics
when it arrived from the US the block hadn't been cleaned but its looking gleaming now.
It's been a long saga this but i'm just glad it's been rebuilt and running. Will get it remapped in the new year as this season has been a write off.
Anyway just to update, the engine is looking extremely good and is now back in the car and running nicely. Some pics below as I know we all like shiny pics
when it arrived from the US the block hadn't been cleaned but its looking gleaming now.It's been a long saga this but i'm just glad it's been rebuilt and running. Will get it remapped in the new year as this season has been a write off.
12-04-2014, 05:59 PM
#180
greatly appreciate you posting this and seeing both sides of the story with the vendor response (lack of help) All I can say is I would not tolerate being spoken to or treated this way by a company. Spend 17k for this type of debate and bs when they should have welcomed the opportunity to learn from you and make it right. There shortsighted view of customer service will only cost them multiples over time.
By the way on the nsx c30/32 engine a lot of respected tuners where looking to replace the harmonic balancer with a lighter weight unit to improve performance. After engine failures and asking an nsx design engineer it was learned that in engine testing honda found a resonance at a certain rpm that would result in engine failure. Thus the specifc and heavy balancer. The point is I would not be surprised at all of the modifications they made to the stock crank resulted in both the damage to the bearings and to the multiple instances of cracked intake.
Your new engine looks great beyond words. I hope you have a lot of fun and enjoyment with it
By the way on the nsx c30/32 engine a lot of respected tuners where looking to replace the harmonic balancer with a lighter weight unit to improve performance. After engine failures and asking an nsx design engineer it was learned that in engine testing honda found a resonance at a certain rpm that would result in engine failure. Thus the specifc and heavy balancer. The point is I would not be surprised at all of the modifications they made to the stock crank resulted in both the damage to the bearings and to the multiple instances of cracked intake.
Your new engine looks great beyond words. I hope you have a lot of fun and enjoyment with it