Urge / Endyn engine failure
08-26-2014, 12:04 PM
#111
Originally Posted by s2000Junky' timestamp='1409073023' post='23302674
For what its worth in my experience, I have had issues like this come up with some big name dyno shops/engine builders, and it always starts out as good communication, building trust and becoming "friends", maybe even staying after hours at the shop with owners to share a few beers. Then when something catastrophic happens to your engine, the tone immediately changes, and the same folks are now on the defensive and looking for the quickest way to wash their hands of you. Lessons be learned. At the end of the day they aren’t your friends, they want your money, its business first. They just happen to like cars like you so it’s easy to bridge that gap with you when everything is going great, warm and fuzzy.
08-26-2014, 12:09 PM
#112
Registered User
Originally Posted by deepbluejh' timestamp='1409076043' post='23302754
You can't expect them to warranty the motor sign unseen. You also can't expect them to PROMISE all expenses are going to be covered under warranty without even seeing the motor or providing technical data at the time of failure.
Urge might still be completely responsible here and owe this guy an engine. A few of their replies also bordered on inappropriate. That does not make them wrong in asking to see the engine before cutting the guy a check though.
08-26-2014, 03:01 PM
#113
Member
Thread Starter
No but the issue is there is no way I could send them it. Given the response from Endyn that I and others have had, it seems there's always a foregone conculsion with regard to a failure.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
08-26-2014, 03:57 PM
#114
Damn sad to hear something like this... I was considering an engine build similar to yours from them but after reading this thread there is no way in hell id risk a dime to them. Pretty sad, seeing a company like this trip over a dollar to pick up a dime. Im sure the lost future business will dwarf what it would have cost them to properly address your engine failure. Hell, already lost my 17k
08-26-2014, 04:39 PM
#115
Registered User
No but the issue is there is no way I could send them it. Given the response from Endyn that I and others have had, it seems there's always a foregone conculsion with regard to a failure.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
If the engine failed because of a build fault, they should absolutely build you another free of charge, however it's easy to understand why they don't want to hand over a $17k motor based on a few pictures someone sent them. It would be downright foolish for them to do that. It's going to be a PITA, and expensive, but you're going to have to get that motor to them if you want a replacement or refund. That is standard policy across the industry for most any product I can think of. Buying an engine over seas is an inherently risky proposition due to the logistics involved.
IMO, you should foot the bill for getting the motor to them. If they find that the failure was their fault (assuming they honest enough to fess up), then you should get a replacement motor with a refund on your shipping cost to get the motor to them.
As a side note, based on the engine inspector's comments (on the crank and bearings) it seems as if they don't understand the motor at all and probably aren't qualified to make any sort of damage assessment on it.
08-26-2014, 04:51 PM
#116
Really sad this happened to you.
When you spend that type of money, you expect whatever it is you are buying to be amazing. And if its not, the company usually makes it right. Be it your defective shoes that just blew out or your smart phone that just took a crap after a day. Sure you are not gonna ask to keep the shoes or the phone as well as get a new product. "I cant give you your money back, but I can give you store credit or an even exchange" If that doesnt happen, you usually dont buy from that place again and possible you might have given up on that product brand that failed. Correct? But if they make it right,
and people are happy.
Personally, if it was my business I would offer a new build after I receive the old build and then refund the shipping cost. Sometimes you gotta take one for the team.
I would respond the same way if I sold some Ohlins TTX shocks and one was leaking after a race. Im not gonna say "you could have hit a curb and blew them"....that shit aint suppose work like that! Its not a condom, its not one time use!!!!
When you spend that type of money, you expect whatever it is you are buying to be amazing. And if its not, the company usually makes it right. Be it your defective shoes that just blew out or your smart phone that just took a crap after a day. Sure you are not gonna ask to keep the shoes or the phone as well as get a new product. "I cant give you your money back, but I can give you store credit or an even exchange" If that doesnt happen, you usually dont buy from that place again and possible you might have given up on that product brand that failed. Correct? But if they make it right,
and people are happy.Personally, if it was my business I would offer a new build after I receive the old build and then refund the shipping cost. Sometimes you gotta take one for the team.
I would respond the same way if I sold some Ohlins TTX shocks and one was leaking after a race. Im not gonna say "you could have hit a curb and blew them"....that shit aint suppose work like that! Its not a condom, its not one time use!!!!
08-26-2014, 05:45 PM
#117
Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by MB' timestamp='1409094081' post='23303249
No but the issue is there is no way I could send them it. Given the response from Endyn that I and others have had, it seems there's always a foregone conculsion with regard to a failure.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
Even after seeing all the strip down pics, you can see from their response how the finger is pointed my way. I still have no valid explaination how installing it and driving it could cause a catastrophic main bearing failure.
So as it stands, they have full payment and I have a broken engine.
If the engine failed because of a build fault, they should absolutely build you another free of charge, however it's easy to understand why they don't want to hand over a $17k motor based on a few pictures someone sent them. It would be downright foolish for them to do that. It's going to be a PITA, and expensive, but you're going to have to get that motor to them if you want a replacement or refund. That is standard policy across the industry for most any product I can think of. Buying an engine over seas is an inherently risky proposition due to the logistics involved.
IMO, you should foot the bill for getting the motor to them. If they find that the failure was their fault (assuming they honest enough to fess up), then you should get a replacement motor with a refund on your shipping cost to get the motor to them.
As a side note, based on the engine inspector's comments (on the crank and bearings) it seems as if they don't understand the motor at all and probably aren't qualified to make any sort of damage assessment on it.
I'm not sure how well you have read the thread, but are you suggesting I still send them it back after the response from Endyn and the post from Urge?? Do you think I would get an unbiased inspection now?
On what grounds are you saying the engine inspector is not qualified? He builds hundreds of race engines and many of my competetors use them, with no failures that I can find. Are you an engine builder yourself?
08-26-2014, 06:10 PM
#119
Kudos to you MB in dealing with this whole situation, happily accepting comments from both sides. I think it is important for people to understand that just because someone doesn't think everything should just be covered under warranty sight unseen doesn't mean they think MB doesn't deserve a fair deal in this situation and that he shouldn't be treated fairly. I can understand both sides of the argument. MB is absolutely right to question how he could be responsible for a bottom end failure. Urge is absolutely right to question whether or not something should be covered until they can look at it themselves or get a detailed assessment of the damage, and after it went through an on track incident (no matter how small). It seems like there could have been compromises made to avoid the entire shipping situation and a fair deal could have been reached. Whether that be having someone from Urge/Endyn fly out and work with a local shop to disassemble and asses the damage. Or request very detailed photographs, and other data to determine the cause of failure.
I should have mentioned in my first post in this thread, while I understand Urge's point of view and even agree with it on some points, personally if I was in the situation where my company built a race engine that failed so quickly, I would travel to the location myself and do everything I could to determine what the cause was. If not for the specific customer, for myself so I could avoid the issue in the future. Part of the sale of any engine I have dedicated a huge amount of my time to would include a much higher level of support than what has been showcased in this thread. Even if the customer was extremely hostile and immediately blamed me. But unfortunately I don't know shit about building a race engine.
I should have mentioned in my first post in this thread, while I understand Urge's point of view and even agree with it on some points, personally if I was in the situation where my company built a race engine that failed so quickly, I would travel to the location myself and do everything I could to determine what the cause was. If not for the specific customer, for myself so I could avoid the issue in the future. Part of the sale of any engine I have dedicated a huge amount of my time to would include a much higher level of support than what has been showcased in this thread. Even if the customer was extremely hostile and immediately blamed me. But unfortunately I don't know shit about building a race engine.
08-26-2014, 08:34 PM
#120
Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Andrew.
It's pretty clear i'm not going to get anything though - Urge have said their piece and bailed from this thread, which leaves me high and dry.
I wasn't asking the world, I was asking for some contribution to fix a failure which I 100% believe is not my fault and still do not see how it can be. As I said, if the head had munched a valve, that could be my fault from an over-rev. If i'd ran it dry, potentially my fault (oil pump failure aside) if i'd holed a piston from poor mapping, deffo my fault. I haven't claimed any of those things - the head is clearly fine.
I'm a resonable person and in their shoes my first reaction would have been 'wow this is a big surprise, get it back to us asap and we will sort it out'
I still do understand their position and that me initially stating the oil pan was to blame got their back up, but from the point the internal pictures were recieved there should have been much more effort expended on fixing it instead of coming up with reasons it was my fault or that my engine builder was not competent.
If there had been any offer on the table which I though was an attempt to help out, this thread wouldn't be here.
I guess I just have to take the hit, and move on. I won't be racing again this season though.
It's pretty clear i'm not going to get anything though - Urge have said their piece and bailed from this thread, which leaves me high and dry.
I wasn't asking the world, I was asking for some contribution to fix a failure which I 100% believe is not my fault and still do not see how it can be. As I said, if the head had munched a valve, that could be my fault from an over-rev. If i'd ran it dry, potentially my fault (oil pump failure aside) if i'd holed a piston from poor mapping, deffo my fault. I haven't claimed any of those things - the head is clearly fine.
I'm a resonable person and in their shoes my first reaction would have been 'wow this is a big surprise, get it back to us asap and we will sort it out'
I still do understand their position and that me initially stating the oil pan was to blame got their back up, but from the point the internal pictures were recieved there should have been much more effort expended on fixing it instead of coming up with reasons it was my fault or that my engine builder was not competent.
If there had been any offer on the table which I though was an attempt to help out, this thread wouldn't be here.
I guess I just have to take the hit, and move on. I won't be racing again this season though.