Gernby

It would definitely give performance gains with the OEM mufflers, but I am not sure what it would sound like. The OEM mufflers don't have any sound deadening material, and rely totally on chambers. I plan to test it out though.

Regarding the "pricey" thing. I understand that $1K sounds like a lot for a mid-pipe, but do you know of any other NA modification that provides gains like this for less? I don't know of any header at any price that gives gains like this. When it comes down to bang for the buck (while remaining NA and 49 state legal), I don't think it gets any better than this.

Gernby

I've had a very disappointing evening. I received the Invidia Q300 this afternoon, so I came home early from work (my day job) to get started on my "big plan". I brought out the surround sound digital recorder and its mount, and figured out how to use it again. Then I got my FlashPro and laptop to repeat the same datalogging session that I've done hundreds of times (last year). It took a surprising amount of time for me to figure out my process again, since I didn't write it down (I hate notes), but I eventually figured it out. I successfully datalogged and recorded the sound for both WOT and PT with my 10 month old prototype exhaust system, then came back home to install the full Q300 system.

I unpackaged everything, and was pleased with the way it looked. However, as soon as I saw the "slip fit" connectors for the mufflers, I was very worried. I went ahead with removing my full exhaust, and started to install the Q300. It went very quickly, until I got to those friggin' slip fit $#@!% connectors. I spent at least an hour trying to get the mufflers to slip onto the Y-pipe before I decided to break out my pnuematic pipe expander to "fix" the situation. After expanding each of the muffler flanges, I was finally able to slip them on enough to not have a gaping hole. However, I still think I need to expand them further in order to align the tips with the bumper cutouts.

After getting the Q300 installed with a 60mm test pipe, I went for another datalogging session. As soon as I started the car in the garage, I thought there must have been an exhaust leak. I had my wife come out to blip the throttle while I felt for leaks under the car, and found NONE! It's just a crappy sounding system! I don't know what the people were smoking who say it sounds like stock at idle or part throttle!

I went ahead with my datalogging session, and got the same info I did with my prototype. However, I was embarassed to even be driving it with that system on the car. The less bad news is that it did have a decent torque curve with the test pipe, but it wasn't as flat as it will be with my mid-pipe. I don't expect my mid-pipe to fix the crappy sound of the exhaust, so I kind of think this experiment is somewhat futile...

I'll go ahead, and "install" the invidia mufflers on my mid-pipe tomorrow, and repeat the tests...

v2kai

I'm really intrigued with your design and drooling at the mid range torque gains but I've been puzzling over your photos and I dont fully understand where your design would end and an existing exhaust system would start. Maybe (likely) I'm just daft but could you describe a bit more as to how this would be installed? I've got a mugen catback at the moment so if I wanted your setup this would require me to cut my current catback? Or more likely than hacking up a mugen exhaust, getting a cheaper catback and customizing that one to fit your setup...

Something like this?

Duyx817

i think you might have to break in the exhaust and then it might sound better

japhethwar

While I really appreciate the time and effort here, I believe this is not gonna be successful. If it was bolt on and 3-400 maybe, but weld on and 1k is never gonna sell. Honestly I don't understand any of you guy's spending all this money for 5ft/lbs of torque, that you can't feel anyway. As for curing drone, pick up a 40 dollar vibrant resonator, weld it in, no more drone. Buy the time you buy this pipe, an ems to tune with, as its worthless without tuning, an exhuast to cut up, and pay someone to weld, install, and tune. Your gonna spend 2500$ to make 10hp in the midrange. 2500 will buy a decent used supercharger that will make 100+hp on a completely factory exhaust. Again, i'm not bashing. As a welder, mechanic, fabricator myself I do appreciate the time and effort involved here. It just doesn't seem like a viable thing for the money involved. You may try welding them up yourself to save some money, and by all means just build a complete exhaust. People will spend the money for a complete bolt in unit, but your gonna here crickets chirping for a weld in universal mid pipe. 99% of these guy's can't weld, and aren't gonna spend the time or money to have it done for them. Combine your mid pipe with that funky looking exhaust, make it drone free, slightly louder than a stocker, and prove a bit of a power gain without tuning. If you can keep it under say 1500$, you'll have a big seller out of the box. Good luck either way. for trying something new.

freetors

Probably the only way to make this universal and cheap is to sell it with all the sections not welded together. Just have the buyer weld it all up and cut it to the length they want for their particular exhaust.

Gernby

There has always been an argument about how much 1 HP is worth. Over the past 10 years that I've been on this forum (2 separate S2000's), the common rule of thumb has been that $100 per HP is a pretty good deal. Of course, every HP you gain makes the next HP more expensive. Low hanging fruit versus high hanging fruit. Think about how much power can be gained from a $60 test pipe, then compare that to one of the Unicorn headers. I still haven't seen any dynos that show difinititvely that any header makes the kinds of gains that a test pipe does. Have any of you?

My pipe can't be built for less than $1000 unless I manufacture 200 or more at a time. In fact, if I sent you a list of the exact parts to buy with detailed instructions about how each peice needed to be cut, then you went from shop to shop looking for people to do the work, I doubt you could get it done for less than $1800. That was the best price I found. The one shown in the pictures below cost about $1100 PLUS 20 hours of my time (literally 20 hours measuring, cutting, tacking, recutting, tacking, etc.). The only way I would be able to make it cheaper would be to build 10-20 of them, so I can get better prices on material and labor. Even then, much of that labor will be my own. That's the only way I believe I could get the cost down to $1000, which would make it break even for me to then sell them for $1000. I want to get them down to $1000, since that makes it $100 per HP gained (10 HP peak / 20 HP midrange).

@japthewar, I think your math is seriously flawed on the 10 HP in the midrange for $2500 thing. I don't know how either of those numbers could be derived from anything in this thread. The truth is that anyone can get significant gains (10 HP peak gain) just by installing my mid-pipe on a stock S2000 (assuming they have a compatable muffler section OR I verify whether it will work with the OEM mufflers). If they want to get a tuning solution, then they can get much more significant gains (20 HP peak gain).

Regarding the comment about adding a Vibrant resonator to eliminate drone ... that's just misinformed. I installed a Vibrant Ultra-Quiet resonator in my 3" dingle on the 2nd week, and it certainly did NOT eliminate drone. It did a great job quieting down the volume and eliminated rasp completely, but it did not eliminate drone. On top of that, it destroyed mid-range torque! A resonator in the OEM location causes a resonant dip in torque at about 5500 RPMs. The bigger the resonator, the bigger the dip in torque. That's why the F20 and F22 both have 6K VTEC engagements. Everything about the intake and exhaust is built to have "stacked" resonant dips at 5500 with resonant humps at 6500. Another thing to note about the Vibrant resonator is that it is a weld-on solution too! It seems that many people are willing to pay $100 to have a resonator welded into their exhaust, so what's the big deal about this? After all, I'm not trying to sell 100 of these pipes. I really just care about selling 10-20 ever. Once those 10-20 are sold, I'll go try to make my investment pay off on another platform.

Here are some pictures of my pipe next to the Q300 exhaust, which shows how what would be replaced. I am about to do that very thing right now.

TruBluS2k

wow that looks crazy!

japhethwar

I got my numbers by adding. 700 for invidia q300, 1200 for ems, 1000 for your pipe, 400 for tune, 100 for welding and install. That looks like 3400 to me, even without the ems its over 2g's. As far as the drone. I have the invidia N1 on my turbo car, and a 12in long 3in diameter resonator removed the drone from my exhaust. Maybe not on every car with every exhaust, but it does work. I think your pipe is a great idea if its coupled with an exhaust. Alone its just too expensive. Again, not bashing, just constructive criticism. For comparison's sake. I made 250hp over stock for 6000$ with my turbo kit. Thats 24$ per horsepower gained. If you figure a optimistic 30hp gain for your setup. Thats 109$ per horsepower gained.

s2000ellier

Gernby, maybe offer a mail-order tune for those who purchase your stuff. Might bring in some more people.