Interesting spark plug maybe
03-01-2008, 07:36 AM
#21
jcarlton has a set and they're going to run their own comparison on their dyno. He's lookin for a volunteer in the fla forum
fltsfshr
fltsfshr
03-03-2008, 03:33 AM
#23
It's complete snake oil.
They CANNOT increase the energy at the spark plugs.
This relies on the same thing as all of the old capacitor wires. Yes, the pulse appears stronger, but it happens over a much shorter period of time. This gimmick has been around for decades in one form or another. If it actually made power or improved emissions, the OEM's would use it.
Here's a bit more info on the wire side...
http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm
Tim
They CANNOT increase the energy at the spark plugs.
This relies on the same thing as all of the old capacitor wires. Yes, the pulse appears stronger, but it happens over a much shorter period of time. This gimmick has been around for decades in one form or another. If it actually made power or improved emissions, the OEM's would use it.
Here's a bit more info on the wire side...
http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm
Tim
03-03-2008, 03:42 AM
#24
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They aren't cheap either. About $25.00 a pop. I'm not willing to spend hard earned dollars until enough time has been invested(by real people like us) on a new product with plenty of reliable documented research(maybe Consumer Reports).
03-03-2008, 10:29 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by twohoos,Feb 29 2008, 04:34 PM
Correct, though actually redline is 8900, which means 13,483 usec between sparks. In that time, the crank goes through 720 degrees of rotation, or 18.7usec/degree.
So I think the basic reasoning behind their claim is this. Assuming they're correct that a typical plug requires 30 usec to fully discharge, then the 2-ns pulse plug could be fired 30 usec later. At 8900 rpm, that's ~1.6 degrees of timing advance, which is non-trivial; one would expect the cylinder pressure to be a few percent higher during the spark, with a corresponding increase in peak pressure.
Some questions: does the pulse plug inherently "create" this timing advance by storing the energy that would be released in the 30 usec of the normal spark event, and then firing at the last instant? In that case, the ECU doesn't have to "know" that the timing has been effectively advanced; it times its ignition signals just as it always did. OTOH, if the ECU does have to sense some difference and then adapt the timing itself, there's the question of whether the ECU would even allow an advance that great. And finally, there's the possibility that any cylinder pressure increase could simply cause the fuel to detonate and the ECU would back off again.
Anyway, will be interesting to see how things turn out. Color me skeptical of those across-the-rev-range gains in the s2kca dyno plot. (For one thing, at low revs, there are fewer degrees of crank rotation during those 30 usec, so less opportunity to advance timing...)
John
P.S. Everyone's talking about $80 for a set of these, but their site quotes $24.95 each?
So I think the basic reasoning behind their claim is this. Assuming they're correct that a typical plug requires 30 usec to fully discharge, then the 2-ns pulse plug could be fired 30 usec later. At 8900 rpm, that's ~1.6 degrees of timing advance, which is non-trivial; one would expect the cylinder pressure to be a few percent higher during the spark, with a corresponding increase in peak pressure.
Some questions: does the pulse plug inherently "create" this timing advance by storing the energy that would be released in the 30 usec of the normal spark event, and then firing at the last instant? In that case, the ECU doesn't have to "know" that the timing has been effectively advanced; it times its ignition signals just as it always did. OTOH, if the ECU does have to sense some difference and then adapt the timing itself, there's the question of whether the ECU would even allow an advance that great. And finally, there's the possibility that any cylinder pressure increase could simply cause the fuel to detonate and the ECU would back off again.
Anyway, will be interesting to see how things turn out. Color me skeptical of those across-the-rev-range gains in the s2kca dyno plot. (For one thing, at low revs, there are fewer degrees of crank rotation during those 30 usec, so less opportunity to advance timing...)
John
P.S. Everyone's talking about $80 for a set of these, but their site quotes $24.95 each?
03-04-2008, 12:16 PM
#26
^You're right -- my bad. 
I guess the same train of thought, though, could be applied to either the case that the pulse plug fires at the end of the 30us window (timing retard), the beginning (timing advance), or somewhere in between. What really happens? What does the ECU "know," and does it have to adjust?
Another thought: Assuming the flame front actually expands more rapidly, that itself is a kind of timing advance, since presumably full burn/peak pressure would occur earlier.
I guess the same train of thought, though, could be applied to either the case that the pulse plug fires at the end of the 30us window (timing retard), the beginning (timing advance), or somewhere in between. What really happens? What does the ECU "know," and does it have to adjust?
Another thought: Assuming the flame front actually expands more rapidly, that itself is a kind of timing advance, since presumably full burn/peak pressure would occur earlier.
03-04-2008, 01:55 PM
#27
Registered User
Combustion chamber view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZVnQeBek30
I don't know what RPM that's at, but I get the impression that the speed of the initial flame-front propagation from the spark is pretty immaterial compared to the rest of what's going on in an engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZVnQeBek30
I don't know what RPM that's at, but I get the impression that the speed of the initial flame-front propagation from the spark is pretty immaterial compared to the rest of what's going on in an engine.
07-24-2008, 08:45 PM
#28
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I am really very interested in these plugs, and like you guys I have seen the dyno results, including the one for the 05 stook. My interest in these plugs arose when I was part of a team building a race engine. My understanding of engine dynamics used to be relatively comprehensive, but to be honest a lot of it has faded.(im an electrical engineer, not an engine designer and I dont work on cars any more),
Here is my "hopefully optimistic" take on the various issues people have raised, and on the general operation of the plug.
Claimed basic operation: Plug creates larger spark/"flame front" resulting in quicker expansion of the "combusting" portion of the air fuel mixture.
Engine efficiency:
The efficiency of the engine (assuming operation near or @ 100% volumetric) is primarily determined by correctly timing the combustion process such that the resultant pressure wave hits the piston at just the right moment which would result in the conversion of "explosion" energy into mechanical energy.
Timing:
When (relative to TDC) you decide to ignite the mixture. Timing needs to be increased along with rpm/fuel (more fuel=more time needed to burn totally). One can play it say and send a pulse to ignite the spark at TDC but this would be way to late for achieving the optimal pressure wave timing, so we advance the timing to ignite the mixture early so the pressure wave arrive hopefully closer to the ideal time. Advance the timing too much and and you have early combustion, similar to other types of detonation and commonly referred to as pinging. The worst kind of which would be if the pressure wave met the piston while it was still on its down stroke.
So to get the most power we advance the timing as far as we can for a given rpm, till we get a lot of power and don't experience ping. Obviously ideally its a thin line between the two, but due to the fact that everything doesn't happen exactly the same way every time we cant really push the timing as far advanced as it could be in an ideal world. And so this thin line become a thick line, and impedes us from pushing the timing to ideal.
Faster burning mixture:
A faster burning mixture will in a cleaner/ more consistent and boviously shorter combustion period. Since it is faster it inherently retards the timing (of the pressure wave, not the time the spark is initiated)) relative to the old spark plugs. So we then can advance the timing a bit (this doesn't give us gains, it brings us back to square one, where the pressure wave hits the piston at the same time as the old plugs).
Why could these plugs give more power?:
I think that what might happen is the following, the shorter/more consistent repetitive combustions means that since the variations have been reduced we make that thick line a little thinner. And further more, a shorter will likely result in cooler operation, which would further thin the line because it would decrease one of the potential sources of "ping". The net result is that we can now push are timing more advances, and thus close the the ideal point for each rpm.
thats my $.02 for the moment,
dont take my word on it, but let me know if it makes sense or not.
Here is my "hopefully optimistic" take on the various issues people have raised, and on the general operation of the plug.
Claimed basic operation: Plug creates larger spark/"flame front" resulting in quicker expansion of the "combusting" portion of the air fuel mixture.
Engine efficiency:
The efficiency of the engine (assuming operation near or @ 100% volumetric) is primarily determined by correctly timing the combustion process such that the resultant pressure wave hits the piston at just the right moment which would result in the conversion of "explosion" energy into mechanical energy.
Timing:
When (relative to TDC) you decide to ignite the mixture. Timing needs to be increased along with rpm/fuel (more fuel=more time needed to burn totally). One can play it say and send a pulse to ignite the spark at TDC but this would be way to late for achieving the optimal pressure wave timing, so we advance the timing to ignite the mixture early so the pressure wave arrive hopefully closer to the ideal time. Advance the timing too much and and you have early combustion, similar to other types of detonation and commonly referred to as pinging. The worst kind of which would be if the pressure wave met the piston while it was still on its down stroke.
So to get the most power we advance the timing as far as we can for a given rpm, till we get a lot of power and don't experience ping. Obviously ideally its a thin line between the two, but due to the fact that everything doesn't happen exactly the same way every time we cant really push the timing as far advanced as it could be in an ideal world. And so this thin line become a thick line, and impedes us from pushing the timing to ideal.
Faster burning mixture:
A faster burning mixture will in a cleaner/ more consistent and boviously shorter combustion period. Since it is faster it inherently retards the timing (of the pressure wave, not the time the spark is initiated)) relative to the old spark plugs. So we then can advance the timing a bit (this doesn't give us gains, it brings us back to square one, where the pressure wave hits the piston at the same time as the old plugs).
Why could these plugs give more power?:
I think that what might happen is the following, the shorter/more consistent repetitive combustions means that since the variations have been reduced we make that thick line a little thinner. And further more, a shorter will likely result in cooler operation, which would further thin the line because it would decrease one of the potential sources of "ping". The net result is that we can now push are timing more advances, and thus close the the ideal point for each rpm.
thats my $.02 for the moment,
dont take my word on it, but let me know if it makes sense or not.
09-07-2008, 03:42 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by istdercollen@hotmail.com,Sep 7 2008, 12:11 AM
well fwiw here is a dyno chart from one of our guys here in Hawai'i
