Engine knock / pinking with Mugen ECU!
02-10-2011, 08:44 AM
#41
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@sideways: I see. Fair point. I appreciate your input 
So, would you say that you agree with me when I said that, with the intake ON, pinking is probably still going on, it's just harder to hear.
Or it MIGHT be possible that it knocks more with the intake OFF?
I'm actually considering selling the gruppe-m and getting a k&n fipj or aem... I really want to hear a nice (loudish) throaty noise from my car!!
It's barely audible, compared to a bone-stock s2k with just the airbox lid off!
So, would you say that you agree with me when I said that, with the intake ON, pinking is probably still going on, it's just harder to hear.
Or it MIGHT be possible that it knocks more with the intake OFF?
I'm actually considering selling the gruppe-m and getting a k&n fipj or aem... I really want to hear a nice (loudish) throaty noise from my car!!
It's barely audible, compared to a bone-stock s2k with just the airbox lid off!
02-10-2011, 11:06 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by gernby,Feb 10 2011, 09:43 AM
I really don't think it's correct to make a statement like that. I've seen on 2 different pairs of nearly identical S2000's that the OEM heat range leads to more knock retard. Back in '02, my buddy and I both had '02 AP1's with the same mods, except I also had colder plugs. When we monitored ignition timing via OBDII, mine was more advanced than his. When I datalogged my brother's 100% bone stock AP2 and compared it to my nearly stock '08 AP2 with colder plugs, his had 3 degrees less ignition timing and 3 degrees more knock retard. So it seems to me that the OEM heat range certainly can contribut to knock.
However we should bear in mind that the mugen ecu ignores the knock sensor.
Then again, if the ecu is advancing the timing with colder plugs, it must mean that colder plugs Alone contribute to less knock. Which in my case, will be good news.
Hopefully.
02-10-2011, 11:13 AM
#43
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I was making a google search and came across this...
Strange how they're being so strict about it being a Rqce Only ecu. I do have all the mugen cooling mods, mugen header and mugen exhaust.
Spark plugs on heat range 8 on the way;
But I don't have upgraded valve springs :/
The fuel... It's always becoming clearer that I need to add some serious race fuel!!
I had an appointment with the guys at SEEKER this morning to increase the camber on my front wheels. This is mainly in preparation for the new RAYS wheels which are yet to arrive. but also because I have two Tsukuba circuit sessions coming up next week.
As I was talking with the manager Ryo, somehow we started talking about a Mugen N1 ECU which is available for sale (for a DC5) only if your car meets the HOA (Honda One-Make-Race Association) regulations or you're able to buy it second-hand from someone else (keep checking those yahoo auctions!). Anyway Ryo happened to have the ECU in his shop as one of his race cars is a DC5 and so we ended up having an interesting chat !
Why am I writing about this ? Well, I've seen hundreds of posts around different DC5 forums talking about people wanting to buy and install these ECUs for street use and it really boggles my mind how un-educated and down right wasteful such attempts are. People concentrate on the plug-n-play aspect of this ECU but don't try to think about what it really is they're getting by running such an ECU.
Let me explain ...
First of all, it is a RACE only ECU ! It is such by design and by regulations here in Japan where it comes from. Secondly, this ECU is meant for N1 production races therefore there are certain regulations regarding modifications needed to supplement such an ECU. This means this ECU is effective ONLY when you have the following modifications in place :
a) Upgraded cooling system
(yes you need to be able to cool your engine beyond what the stock radiator is capable of otherwise the higher air/fuel mixture characteristics will go to waste and the engine overheats and causes unwanted side-effects like pinging/knocking)
b) Upgraded spark plugs
(you heard it right ! With the increase in air/fuel mixture ratio comes greater heat and therefore your spark plugs need to be able to handle higher temperatures and be able to dissipate that heat well! Try NGK spark plugs with 8, 9 or 10 heat characteristics)
c) Upgraded exhaust system
(Preferably Mugen's N1 catback system but others will do)
d) Upgraded valve springs
(As recommended by Mugen themselves for longivity and durability. Don't ignore this point!)
e) Run on 100 octane fuel
(which as far as I known is not available outside of Japan. Yes you can use lower octane with a booster or otherwise expect pinging or knocking)
This ECU will lower the VTEC engagement point, it will rev higher and give you more power but it will also consume more fuel, idle higher and disable your air-conditioner. It is a purpose built ECU and should be consumed as such, but it makes your car POWERFUL and it is definitely NOTICABLE (I am talking from experience here )!
So if you're thinking of getting one, think about what I wrote and make sure you have a clear purpose which is not STREET driving ! If you do buy it, make sure you keep your stock ECU and use it whenever you're not on a track or circuit or doing any competition. When you're about to go to a track or circuit, simply unplug the stock ECU and plug-in the Mugen ECU (go back and read this last sentence again !).
As always feel free to email me if you have question or reach out to the guys at SEEKER who are more than happy to assist with any Honda related queries
As I was talking with the manager Ryo, somehow we started talking about a Mugen N1 ECU which is available for sale (for a DC5) only if your car meets the HOA (Honda One-Make-Race Association) regulations or you're able to buy it second-hand from someone else (keep checking those yahoo auctions!). Anyway Ryo happened to have the ECU in his shop as one of his race cars is a DC5 and so we ended up having an interesting chat !
Why am I writing about this ? Well, I've seen hundreds of posts around different DC5 forums talking about people wanting to buy and install these ECUs for street use and it really boggles my mind how un-educated and down right wasteful such attempts are. People concentrate on the plug-n-play aspect of this ECU but don't try to think about what it really is they're getting by running such an ECU.
Let me explain ...
First of all, it is a RACE only ECU ! It is such by design and by regulations here in Japan where it comes from. Secondly, this ECU is meant for N1 production races therefore there are certain regulations regarding modifications needed to supplement such an ECU. This means this ECU is effective ONLY when you have the following modifications in place :
a) Upgraded cooling system
(yes you need to be able to cool your engine beyond what the stock radiator is capable of otherwise the higher air/fuel mixture characteristics will go to waste and the engine overheats and causes unwanted side-effects like pinging/knocking)
b) Upgraded spark plugs
(you heard it right ! With the increase in air/fuel mixture ratio comes greater heat and therefore your spark plugs need to be able to handle higher temperatures and be able to dissipate that heat well! Try NGK spark plugs with 8, 9 or 10 heat characteristics)
c) Upgraded exhaust system
(Preferably Mugen's N1 catback system but others will do)
d) Upgraded valve springs
(As recommended by Mugen themselves for longivity and durability. Don't ignore this point!)
e) Run on 100 octane fuel
(which as far as I known is not available outside of Japan. Yes you can use lower octane with a booster or otherwise expect pinging or knocking)
This ECU will lower the VTEC engagement point, it will rev higher and give you more power but it will also consume more fuel, idle higher and disable your air-conditioner. It is a purpose built ECU and should be consumed as such, but it makes your car POWERFUL and it is definitely NOTICABLE (I am talking from experience here
)!So if you're thinking of getting one, think about what I wrote and make sure you have a clear purpose which is not STREET driving ! If you do buy it, make sure you keep your stock ECU and use it whenever you're not on a track or circuit or doing any competition. When you're about to go to a track or circuit, simply unplug the stock ECU and plug-in the Mugen ECU (go back and read this last sentence again !).
As always feel free to email me if you have question or reach out to the guys at SEEKER who are more than happy to assist with any Honda related queries
Spark plugs on heat range 8 on the way;
But I don't have upgraded valve springs :/
The fuel... It's always becoming clearer that I need to add some serious race fuel!!
02-10-2011, 03:16 PM
#44
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made more research..
and now, i think that upgraded valve springs are only needed for civics/integras, where the red-line is increased considerably.
In the case of the s2000, the redline is only increased by about 100 rpm.
In fact, Mugen produce / sell their own racing valve springs for civics / integras, but not for s2000s.
if i find out that it really needs 100 octane fuel to work fine, it might after all be worth-while to change back to the stock ecu for road use :s
and now, i think that upgraded valve springs are only needed for civics/integras, where the red-line is increased considerably.
In the case of the s2000, the redline is only increased by about 100 rpm.
In fact, Mugen produce / sell their own racing valve springs for civics / integras, but not for s2000s.
if i find out that it really needs 100 octane fuel to work fine, it might after all be worth-while to change back to the stock ecu for road use :s
02-10-2011, 03:27 PM
#45
If Mugen really did disable the knock sensor, then that REALLY means that you should NOT use the OEM plugs, and need to use the coldest plug that you can get by with. Before Honda started using knock sensors, they would spec 2 different plugs. One plug would be for shorter driving cycles, and there would be another colder plug that was for high speed driving. I believe that once they started using knock sensors, they just went with a hotter plug in all their cars, and let the knock sensor compensate.
02-11-2011, 10:21 AM
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Thanks .. I just read it all.
And i also read a couple of other old Mugen-ECU posts.
It seems clear that FUEL is the major problem.
I went to the local SUNOCO agent today, he can offer 260 GT Plus (109 octane) for 4 euro per litre. Compared to around 1.30 per litre for the normal fuel (~93 octane), it is quite expensive.
And according to a website i used to calculate mixture ratios (http://www.motorsportsracingfuels.co...alculator.html),
I would need to make a mixture of around 50-50.
Which, in my opinion, is way too expensive to run.
I dont use the car during the week, but I make up for it during the weekends. I use a full tank every two weeks, and I can't fork out an extra 60 euro every 2 weeks just to have a stupid (
) ecu.
so, i will see what happens with the new plugs ... i will try to add a small amount of this race fuel, and see if it cures the problem. if not, back to STOCK!
oh and another thing .. he advised me NOT to use ANY type of octane booster, as it will do absolutely no positive effect on the engine, and that it will mess up the valve seats over time.
I did not read this anywhere, so I dont know if I should believe it.
And i also read a couple of other old Mugen-ECU posts.
It seems clear that FUEL is the major problem.
I went to the local SUNOCO agent today, he can offer 260 GT Plus (109 octane) for 4 euro per litre. Compared to around 1.30 per litre for the normal fuel (~93 octane), it is quite expensive.
And according to a website i used to calculate mixture ratios (http://www.motorsportsracingfuels.co...alculator.html),
I would need to make a mixture of around 50-50.
Which, in my opinion, is way too expensive to run.
I dont use the car during the week, but I make up for it during the weekends. I use a full tank every two weeks, and I can't fork out an extra 60 euro every 2 weeks just to have a stupid (
) ecu. so, i will see what happens with the new plugs ... i will try to add a small amount of this race fuel, and see if it cures the problem. if not, back to STOCK!
oh and another thing .. he advised me NOT to use ANY type of octane booster, as it will do absolutely no positive effect on the engine, and that it will mess up the valve seats over time.
I did not read this anywhere, so I dont know if I should believe it.