Stock Limits for Boosted S
04-18-2011, 01:59 PM
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Stock Limits for Boosted S
All other things being equal(stock)-Boosted cars will break things or they will be stressed beyond their reliable limits when in a performance application.
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
04-18-2011, 02:15 PM
#2
Registered User
Whats your definition of "maintain reliability"?
Trannies and diffs get blown by people w stock cars, and can last years for people w boosted cars. Also, the tune has a huge role in the longevity of all the engine parts.
You can ask 10 people these questions and you will get 10 diffent answers.
Trannies and diffs get blown by people w stock cars, and can last years for people w boosted cars. Also, the tune has a huge role in the longevity of all the engine parts.
You can ask 10 people these questions and you will get 10 diffent answers.
All other things being equal(stock)-Boosted cars will break things or they will be stressed beyond their reliable limits when in a performance application.
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
04-18-2011, 02:31 PM
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theres no right anwser to this question, if ur gonna boost on stock compression I wouldnt go over 12-13 psi on pump gas, if u change ur fuel the game changes, e85 and race gas have proved to make insane numbers on stock motors, and like dfw said, trannys and diffs are completly dependent on how the car is driven
04-18-2011, 02:34 PM
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Agree and Agree.
My definition of "maintain reliability" is be able to take a road trip in the car and not be affraid to get stranded, or drive it to a track day, beat on it all day/weekedend and let it drive you back home. That to me is reliability.
I know that the history and maintenance performed will also influence the longevity of any build. Assuming a proper tune, and proper maintence at what power levels could I expect to start replacing components.
Based off or your example of trannies and diffs we can rate them at approximetly 230 whp., as they have been known to fail at those power levels. Yes their are examples where boosted cars have not broken trannies and diffs but in an effort to account for the unknown factor I will choose the lowest power figure of failure as its reliabilty point.
AS I get 10 answers from 10 differnet people I can average those out and always basing my numbers on the lower scale of things.
My definition of "maintain reliability" is be able to take a road trip in the car and not be affraid to get stranded, or drive it to a track day, beat on it all day/weekedend and let it drive you back home. That to me is reliability.
I know that the history and maintenance performed will also influence the longevity of any build. Assuming a proper tune, and proper maintence at what power levels could I expect to start replacing components.
Based off or your example of trannies and diffs we can rate them at approximetly 230 whp., as they have been known to fail at those power levels. Yes their are examples where boosted cars have not broken trannies and diffs but in an effort to account for the unknown factor I will choose the lowest power figure of failure as its reliabilty point.
AS I get 10 answers from 10 differnet people I can average those out and always basing my numbers on the lower scale of things.
Whats your definition of "maintain reliability"?
Trannies and diffs get blown by people w stock cars, and can last years for people w boosted cars. Also, the tune has a huge role in the longevity of all the engine parts.
You can ask 10 people these questions and you will get 10 diffent answers.
Trannies and diffs get blown by people w stock cars, and can last years for people w boosted cars. Also, the tune has a huge role in the longevity of all the engine parts.
You can ask 10 people these questions and you will get 10 diffent answers.
Originally Posted by Japsfinest' timestamp='1303163997' post='20480145
All other things being equal(stock)-Boosted cars will break things or they will be stressed beyond their reliable limits when in a performance application.
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)-?
Stock head gasket-?
Stock head studs-?
Stock Connecting rods-?
Stock Pistons-?
Stock Clutch-?
Stock Transmission-?
Stock Driveshaft-?
Stock Rear-end-?
Stock Axles-?
Stock Injectors-?
Stock Fuel Pump-?
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
04-18-2011, 02:40 PM
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theres no right anwser to this question, if ur gonna boost on stock compression I wouldnt go over 12-13 psi on pump gas, if u change ur fuel the game changes, e85 and race gas have proved to make insane numbers on stock motors, and like dfw said, trannys and diffs are completly dependent on how the car is driven
04-18-2011, 03:44 PM
#6
Registered User
Your right about their being no right answer. That being said why 12-13 psi? why not 18-20psi? Pump gas is reliable to about 22psi. so What fails above 12-13psi that make you say 12-13 psi. Is it headgaskest that goes out? is it head studs that are weak, is it a beant rod? What is the weakest link in the motror..(We already have established tranny and diff cant take it)
2. Pump gas may be ok at 22psi on an Evo or Sti... not an S2000 with 11:1 compression.
3. Instead of asking what is the weak link.. why dont you just tell us what goals are with what parts and gas type that your gonna use.
Theres only a handful of us that pushed the limit on a completely stock F20/F22 motor. (500+whp)
Some broke.. some not driven very much.. some just moved on... BUT none of us used pump gas.
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04-18-2011, 06:11 PM
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All other things being equal(stock)-Boosted cars will break things or they will be stressed beyond their reliable limits when in a performance application.
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
I have had two S2000 AP1 cars. I have tracked both of them in TX on road courses and offer the following comments based on my experience.
For my first S 2000 I made no drive train modifications. I made 15 track weekends and did not have any drivetrain, or non-drivetrain related failues until my last track day when I lost my clutch master cylinder.
My second S 2000 I purchsed from someone that had added a Greddy turbo. He has invested significant upgrades in the car and during his inital modifications, lost the lower end due to a clutch problem.
I took the car to the track the first weekend I owned it and cracked the rear disks. I also had significant overheating issues with the stock cooling system.
I added a upgraded radiator, adusted the air flow, and coated the manifold to reduce heat issues.
Went to the track the second time, managed to melt off three sets of brake pads, overheat the car every session to the point I had to come in after a few laps. After the track day, I had to replace the head gasket, the manifold (cracked), I changed to a vented hood, added brake vents, lost the clutch due normal wear and tear issues.
After I upgraded the cooling/ venting things I went back to the track in January (cold even in TX). So I made it one session and the the clutch slipped, Back to the shop, upgraded clutch to a stage 4 clutch masters (just barely liveable on the street). I stand firm on my other modifications and go back to the track.
So , my 4th track weekend, I sucessfully made 2 one our sessions with no overheating/ clutch / drive train issues.
My additional comments on your specific questions are below. My current set=up is about 275 HP at the wheels with 242 ft pounds of torque. I run about 7 - 12 psi boost.
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)- has not broked due to turbo, lost block due to throw our bearing on clutch.
Stock head gasket-? Lost a 3 mm head gasket at my HP and torque.
Stock head studs-? holding so far.
Stock Connecting rods- holding so far.
Stock Pistons- holding so far
Stock Clutch- would not hold, had to upgrade twice to stage 4 clutch .
Stock Transmission-? holding so far
Stock Driveshaft-? holding so far
Stock Rear-end-? holding so far
Stock Axles-? holding so far.
Stock Injectors-? upgraded with turbo kit.
Stock Fuel Pump-? upgraded with turbo kit
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
What I am looking to do is compile the stock limits of the F20/F22 drive train and at what point the stock components NEED to be upgraded to maintain reliability when boosted.
As some of the more experienced members post I will continuesly update the OP to reflect the information compiled
At what hp or torque have boosted s2000's reached their limits in the following areas:
I have had two S2000 AP1 cars. I have tracked both of them in TX on road courses and offer the following comments based on my experience.
For my first S 2000 I made no drive train modifications. I made 15 track weekends and did not have any drivetrain, or non-drivetrain related failues until my last track day when I lost my clutch master cylinder.
My second S 2000 I purchsed from someone that had added a Greddy turbo. He has invested significant upgrades in the car and during his inital modifications, lost the lower end due to a clutch problem.
I took the car to the track the first weekend I owned it and cracked the rear disks. I also had significant overheating issues with the stock cooling system.
I added a upgraded radiator, adusted the air flow, and coated the manifold to reduce heat issues.
Went to the track the second time, managed to melt off three sets of brake pads, overheat the car every session to the point I had to come in after a few laps. After the track day, I had to replace the head gasket, the manifold (cracked), I changed to a vented hood, added brake vents, lost the clutch due normal wear and tear issues.
After I upgraded the cooling/ venting things I went back to the track in January (cold even in TX). So I made it one session and the the clutch slipped, Back to the shop, upgraded clutch to a stage 4 clutch masters (just barely liveable on the street). I stand firm on my other modifications and go back to the track.
So , my 4th track weekend, I sucessfully made 2 one our sessions with no overheating/ clutch / drive train issues.
My additional comments on your specific questions are below. My current set=up is about 275 HP at the wheels with 242 ft pounds of torque. I run about 7 - 12 psi boost.
Stock bottom end(including stock head gasket)- has not broked due to turbo, lost block due to throw our bearing on clutch.
Stock head gasket-? Lost a 3 mm head gasket at my HP and torque.
Stock head studs-? holding so far.
Stock Connecting rods- holding so far.
Stock Pistons- holding so far
Stock Clutch- would not hold, had to upgrade twice to stage 4 clutch .
Stock Transmission-? holding so far
Stock Driveshaft-? holding so far
Stock Rear-end-? holding so far
Stock Axles-? holding so far.
Stock Injectors-? upgraded with turbo kit.
Stock Fuel Pump-? upgraded with turbo kit
Any other parts of the drivetrain that can or should be replaced due to failure?
I believe that the cooling issues is at the core of the problem with the FI S2000's on road courses.
I do not go the the drag stip, I would expect that venue to have a different set of problems.
04-18-2011, 07:29 PM
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nightshift,
Thank you for your input. This is all very helpful. COOLING is one of the most overlooked aspects in a build that will affect the longevetiy.
EternalLx,
Your right about the Compression Ratio as I ws running 22psi on the supra but I was running 8.5:1.
With a thick head gasket and head studs would the rest of the bottom end hold 500whp reliably?
All who are running 400+, What are you doing about your trannies? Is there an alternate solution that mates to the f20/f22 Bell housing? My understanding is that our gearbox is an Aisin AZ6 and there are several other platforms that shar the same gearbox. Have any of the FI guys on the board experimented with alternate transmissions?
Thank you for your input. This is all very helpful. COOLING is one of the most overlooked aspects in a build that will affect the longevetiy.
EternalLx,
Your right about the Compression Ratio as I ws running 22psi on the supra but I was running 8.5:1.
With a thick head gasket and head studs would the rest of the bottom end hold 500whp reliably?
All who are running 400+, What are you doing about your trannies? Is there an alternate solution that mates to the f20/f22 Bell housing? My understanding is that our gearbox is an Aisin AZ6 and there are several other platforms that shar the same gearbox. Have any of the FI guys on the board experimented with alternate transmissions?
04-18-2011, 08:05 PM
#10
Registered User
You can do 500 whp reliably with good pump gas, a good manifold and a big-ish turbo and a stock motor. Pump can only be compressed so much before it detonates. Even on lowered compression, there is a limit to how much power you can makenon just pump.
I think you need to specify what fuel and a lot more of those types of issues.
Look at the power chart, and you will see what setups make what power and what people have done to put down power. Look at siadam's thread, his was similar to this but seemed more pertinent.
The stock tranny is ok unless you want to bang gears and floor it in second with high horsepower.
The stock diff is ok unless you want to launch the S.
I think you need to specify what fuel and a lot more of those types of issues.
Look at the power chart, and you will see what setups make what power and what people have done to put down power. Look at siadam's thread, his was similar to this but seemed more pertinent.
The stock tranny is ok unless you want to bang gears and floor it in second with high horsepower.
The stock diff is ok unless you want to launch the S.
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