SOS TS Max Turbo Kit Build Thread
11-08-2013, 09:08 AM
#421
Thread Starter
Whoa... I've been away for a while and all this happened...
The first time I saw the dyno sheet my eyes immediately locked in on the torque curve. I saw it drop off above 7k and got a bad feeling inside because I knew what it meant. My old Greddy kit was like that. Instant spool, and it starts to really take off in the midrange. As soon as I hit VTEC and thought, "This is gonna be epic!" the power dropped off and the party ended, and I wound up shifting around 7k. It promised so much but couldn't deliver. It teaches you what boost can do, but refuses to do it.
By contrast, RAIN H8R, Junky, and I know all too well how the SOS Novi 1200 SC behaves on high boost. It hits VTEC and throws you back in the seat as it pulls harder and harder. The scenery around the car blurs and you warp past everything else on the road in a way that seems impossible. It teaches you what high rpm horsepower really is, and it re-wires your brain to finally understand that HP >>>>>> TQ. It made me no longer Torque Obsessed; I am now Horsepower Obsessed. No lie.
When I saw this kit come out, I thought to myself, did SOS finally nail the magic formula? No compromises; no downside; fast twin scroll spool with plenty of power and an easy bolt-on installation? I was really excited. SOS is a great vendor and they make solid products. But as we've learned, this is what it was designed to be; not what we all assumed/hoped it was. It's heartbreaking to see RAIN H8R dissatisfied with the kit, but honestly I think that's because this wasn't the right choice for his goals. None of us anticipated this outcome or we would have warned him up front.
For his goals, I think the answer is most likely a Full Race turbo setup. The ramhorn setup with a GTX30 should just about nail it, but the install isn't quite as much of a straight bolt-on as this SOS setup. Ptuning's kit would also be a great choice for his goals. Either of those can be found used so more $ isn't required. I think a little searching and looking at dyno graphs will reveal the answer; if more power is needed, Full Race's sidewinder or Fullblown's sidewinder should do it.
Again, this is a great kit for people with certain goals. If someone wants a complete, pure bolt-on kit with solid reliability and quality components that doesn't require custom fab or other complicated mods, this works great. It's a great street setup from a reputable vendor and should be a ton of fun in traffic, without the power limitations of Greddy or the complications of other less complete kits.
I remember seeing a thread where a really good tuner was able to work around the Greddy kit's limitations and extend the torque curve a bit higher in the rpm range. I don't think E85 or a different turbo will fix the drop-off, but a good tuner just might be able to find a livable middle ground.
The first time I saw the dyno sheet my eyes immediately locked in on the torque curve. I saw it drop off above 7k and got a bad feeling inside because I knew what it meant. My old Greddy kit was like that. Instant spool, and it starts to really take off in the midrange. As soon as I hit VTEC and thought, "This is gonna be epic!" the power dropped off and the party ended, and I wound up shifting around 7k. It promised so much but couldn't deliver. It teaches you what boost can do, but refuses to do it.
By contrast, RAIN H8R, Junky, and I know all too well how the SOS Novi 1200 SC behaves on high boost. It hits VTEC and throws you back in the seat as it pulls harder and harder. The scenery around the car blurs and you warp past everything else on the road in a way that seems impossible. It teaches you what high rpm horsepower really is, and it re-wires your brain to finally understand that HP >>>>>> TQ. It made me no longer Torque Obsessed; I am now Horsepower Obsessed. No lie.
When I saw this kit come out, I thought to myself, did SOS finally nail the magic formula? No compromises; no downside; fast twin scroll spool with plenty of power and an easy bolt-on installation? I was really excited. SOS is a great vendor and they make solid products. But as we've learned, this is what it was designed to be; not what we all assumed/hoped it was. It's heartbreaking to see RAIN H8R dissatisfied with the kit, but honestly I think that's because this wasn't the right choice for his goals. None of us anticipated this outcome or we would have warned him up front.
For his goals, I think the answer is most likely a Full Race turbo setup. The ramhorn setup with a GTX30 should just about nail it, but the install isn't quite as much of a straight bolt-on as this SOS setup. Ptuning's kit would also be a great choice for his goals. Either of those can be found used so more $ isn't required. I think a little searching and looking at dyno graphs will reveal the answer; if more power is needed, Full Race's sidewinder or Fullblown's sidewinder should do it.
Again, this is a great kit for people with certain goals. If someone wants a complete, pure bolt-on kit with solid reliability and quality components that doesn't require custom fab or other complicated mods, this works great. It's a great street setup from a reputable vendor and should be a ton of fun in traffic, without the power limitations of Greddy or the complications of other less complete kits.
I remember seeing a thread where a really good tuner was able to work around the Greddy kit's limitations and extend the torque curve a bit higher in the rpm range. I don't think E85 or a different turbo will fix the drop-off, but a good tuner just might be able to find a livable middle ground.
Originally Posted by ScienceofSpeed' timestamp='1383690789' post='22863294
We've mentioned this before, and it apparently has gotten missed in the fray.
The power curve posted is due to the turbocharger selected not the system used. The GTX3576R purchased by the customer produced the exact flow rate that the Garrett's advertised flow chart for this turbocharger compressor says it will produce. At 7000 RPM, it is making it's maximum flow rate at this pressure ratio. While manifold design for sure has influence on engine performance, the turbocharger in this case is specifically the reason why this power curve looks the way it does.
This is not a turbocharger we recommended, it was one that the customer specifically requested. This turbocharger is optimized for the power the flow chart dictates, and is beneficial (due to the billet GTX wheel) for higher pressure ratios than what standard pump fuel will allow. We've posted dyno graphs of the GT3582R, which show the power curve not flattening out, specifically because the larger 82mm compressor wheel supports more air flow.
While we are disappointed that Dustin decided to sell the kit - we want to reiterate that the flattening of the power curve is due to the turbocharger selected, not a "flaw" in the system's design.
The power curve posted is due to the turbocharger selected not the system used. The GTX3576R purchased by the customer produced the exact flow rate that the Garrett's advertised flow chart for this turbocharger compressor says it will produce. At 7000 RPM, it is making it's maximum flow rate at this pressure ratio. While manifold design for sure has influence on engine performance, the turbocharger in this case is specifically the reason why this power curve looks the way it does.
This is not a turbocharger we recommended, it was one that the customer specifically requested. This turbocharger is optimized for the power the flow chart dictates, and is beneficial (due to the billet GTX wheel) for higher pressure ratios than what standard pump fuel will allow. We've posted dyno graphs of the GT3582R, which show the power curve not flattening out, specifically because the larger 82mm compressor wheel supports more air flow.
While we are disappointed that Dustin decided to sell the kit - we want to reiterate that the flattening of the power curve is due to the turbocharger selected, not a "flaw" in the system's design.
If you are correct, then it means that all of the dyno charts I've seen so far are from scenarios where the various turbo's were run at such high boost pressure that they ran out of compressor flow prior before the motor ran out of rpm. For example, if the 3582 dyno chart on your website showed a 14psi run instead of 19psi, the torque curve might have remained flat to redline instead of dropping from 370 to 330 from 6,500 to 8,000 rpm.
It would help a LOT if someone could please post dyno results showing each turbo run at an appropriate boost pressure that allows it to maintain a consistent torque curve to redline. Every one I've seen seems to show the boost pressure turned up so high that the compressor can't flow enough beyond 6,500 rpm. The charts on your website actually look worse from that perspective than Dustin's.
We're all just sitting here at our computers trying to figure out whether the issue is the turbo selection or the manifold design. When every dyno chart looks the same, with a noticeable dropoff @ 6,500rpm, then it's easy to assume that the manifold is to blame. The turbo could definitely be the culprit, but we need someone to post evidence to prove that.
11-08-2013, 11:53 AM
#422
Former Sponsor
If you are correct, then it means that all of the dyno charts I've seen so far are from scenarios where the various turbo's were run at such high boost pressure that they ran out of compressor flow prior before the motor ran out of rpm. For example, if the 3582 dyno chart on your website showed a 14psi run instead of 19psi, the torque curve might have remained flat to redline instead of dropping from 370 to 330 from 6,500 to 8,000 rpm.
11-08-2013, 02:16 PM
#424
Dustin was complaining about the power curve, not the torque curve, please reread about 4 pages back. Regardless of what turbocharger, manifold, etc. is used - the torque curve will not be flat as long as consistent pressure is maintained because the torque curve at normalized pressure will generally follow the same VE curve of a factory engine. If you look at a factory engine's torque curve, it also falls off at the same engine speed. We believe every factor has been discussed and at this point, the details and facts are being missed due to the length and disjointed discussion of this thread. If any further questions would like to be discussed, please e-mail: info@ScienceofSpeed.com
The point of my most recent post was to acknowledge that you could be right about the turbo sizing being the issue, and to guide you toward an easy solution to prove that to everyone reading this. SOS is a great vendor and I'm a fan of your products and I was hoping you'd follow my suggestion in order to dispel any mis-perceptions this thread may have caused among the community. I personally want to see your products do well in the marketplace, and I also want members of this community to be able to easily find information here in order to understand the results they can expect from proper turbo sizing for their needs with your kit. Yes, they can call you to get the answer, but honestly, a lot of us base our decisions on what we see here.
I'm not trying to argue with you or aggravate you. I'm suggesting that you have an opportunity to bolster the reputation of this kit among its potential buyers, in the very first place many of those potential buyers tend to go looking for kits when they are thinking of buying. Hint, hint.
11-08-2013, 02:45 PM
#425
For what it's worth, I just spent a half hour staring at the several dozen dyno sheets I've collected over the years. Most of the ones I have, from a variety of other vendors' kits, also exhibit the same characteristics as the dyno sheets on SOS's website. I never really noticed that similarity before. The VE curve does seem to dictate things, as SOS clarified above. I learned something new today. 
11-09-2013, 03:48 PM
#427
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hi, been reading this thread for a couple months now.Its sad to see all this stuff the OP is going thru after spending a couple grands on this.
Got my car returned today. I have the GT3582r kit installed. The install was normal, with no problems encountered, there was no need to improvise in any step of the installation. This kit looks and fits like if it was Honda Oem. To me thats a plus.
Opening build thread in coming days.. few days later some dyno numbers.
Got my car returned today. I have the GT3582r kit installed. The install was normal, with no problems encountered, there was no need to improvise in any step of the installation. This kit looks and fits like if it was Honda Oem. To me thats a plus.
Opening build thread in coming days.. few days later some dyno numbers.
We achieved 400whp @ 13psi with power all the way to redline. Tomorrow I will post a thread with all the info.
11-10-2013, 07:39 AM
#430
Originally Posted by S2K@PR
Finally, went to the dyno today. we didnt experience what the OP posted after 7k-RPMS (power drop).
We achieved 400whp @ 13psi with power all the way to redline. Tomorrow I will post a thread with all the info.