Originally Posted by HondaToyota,Nov 16 2010, 02:13 PM

Sorry....been gone for a while.

I dont think your comment is inappropriate but I just don't see it your way. You may look at wastegate control as something of a sacrifice if the manifold is going to flow well as well as having good turbo response. I see the manifold being flawed.

If the wastegate placement was taken into better consideration or size then it would be able to accommodate your pressure and flow characteristics you seek. You really shouldn't say, well.... thats how it is and besides....who woulds want less power!? As an excuse. I think that running the kit with stock motor internals (11.1:1 CR) and ~12-13 psi of boost is reliable but on the ragged edge of tuning and pump gas limits.

There are those of us that could be just as happy with ~7psi when running the car as a daily for fuel efficiency, less wear and tear as well as control over power if you take it to something like Laguna Seca for example. You say it works, I say the manifold is poorly designed for wastegate control. This is common in the Toyota Supra exhaust manifold world (I have two Supra's) where the RPS and HKS manifolds would not hold or control boost adequatly (non-divided manifold) because of wastegate placement adjacent to the exhaust flow path.

Though, I think your turbo kit is better than most that I have seen. I don't mean to "knock on it." I wish your product and company the best of success and prosperity. I would recommend your kit, just not for me personally and I just wanted to shed light on my thoughts here from a professional stand point.

Now before all of you flip out on my comments, I'll remind everyone I work over at Borg Warner (6 years and EFR R&D) and I hold a masters in mechanical and aerospace engineering. So be kind with your comments, just as I have. I'm not talking out of my ass here.

Now......go! lol.....

Originally Posted by dsddcd,Nov 16 2010, 03:23 PM

I would have to disagree with you on a few points, though there is no argument to your theme.

I believe Ptuning has targeted the market of people between the Greddy kit and the Tuner sidewinders. These are the people that are car savvy, still drive the car on cruises with wives or girlfriends but also like to beat on the car at the track and has some tire spinning power. Those people that like to work on their car, not work for their car and don’t want to spend all their time with it either. For instance, the bottom mount design it's self if a compromise for power, as are the short runners that the manifold uses. However, b/c of this heat is much less or no issue, downpipe fitment and flow is increased to help negate the manifold losses, vibration is decreased........

I am sure if you are using the correct spring and control you can easily control to +/- 1 PSI at a lower boost pressure. It is fairly universally known, at least to my peers, when you move a better flowing manifold boost control becomes trickier. As you know if all else is equal the lowered manifold pressure, which is where the power is derived on a tubular, reduces the differential pressure across the wastegate reducing the driving force to bypass exhaust gasses. The only way to partially recover this loss is to achieve optimal placement of the wastegate port and take advantage of the velocity pressure but on may if not most applications the turbo and other components are in the way.

I also know that most that buy this kit will run as much boost as they can which is 10-13PSI on the stock motor with pump gas. With a good tune this is not as close to the edge as you may think. As you do know too many people push the tune closer to the edge than they should looking for more power rather than buy in the parts needed to run more boost/timing. I personally felt that 13PSI was just about right for everyday driving and around 20PSI the car was just fact enough to get out of its own way.

As for the wastegate setup, I have found that using a spring that is as close to the boost pressure you want is the best choice. If I was looking to run 13PSI I would select a 13PSI spring, thus with the losses through the intercooler system the engine would typically see 11-12PSI at the engine. This has allowed me to tune the system at as low of a duty cycle as possible to elevate chances for larger error. The perfect example of this would be in the Hondata KPRO/FlashPro boost control which has no feedback correction and a very small Pressure to Duty Cycle calibration curve.

Long story short, everybody likes to set their cars up a bit differently but as Ptuning said you have to make some sacrifice somewhere to achieve their power goals.

I also have a degree in Engineering

Originally Posted by cack,Nov 16 2010, 04:45 PM

So what specifically are the design attributes neccesary to make an "unflawed" manifold, and will the new BW internally gated turbo obviate the need for manifold mounted waste gates on a high boost s2k?

Originally Posted by HondaToyota,Nov 16 2010, 10:09 PM

Good questions, I like this.

dsddcd touched on how it becomes a problem when trying to make a manifold to cover all bases. Flow, efficiency, turbulence, back pressure are a few. Problem here on the PFAB is wastegate placement but it's also very tough with the turbocharger so close to the motor and its tight confiment space. Not their faults by any means. You could see the wastegate perform better for they added a larger 60mm at the right angle relative to flow, again, angle might get hard cause of tight spacing. Or you could add another, again, spacing issues. Could it be done? hmm.... yes. But I say it would be time for CATIA or Pro-Engineering CAD software to fit everything within the right constraints.

BW EFR Series turbo's have very high control over boost due to their wastegate path and location. Yes, I would trust an EFR under any high boost application. Thats why I have ordered one twin-scroll internally gated EFR for my special s2k project, along with a custom twin-scroll manifold designed by me. Think ultimate response, down low torque with great amount of flow up top for the F22C motor. When I'm done, Ill post a build thread.

Sorry not all of you may like my comments, but I think all criticism is good criticism to an extent.

Originally Posted by HondaToyota,Nov 16 2010, 10:09 PM

Good questions, I like this.

dsddcd touched on how it becomes a problem when trying to make a manifold to cover all bases. Flow, efficiency, turbulence, back pressure are a few. Problem here on the PFAB is wastegate placement but it's also very tough with the turbocharger so close to the motor and its tight confiment space. Not their faults by any means. You could see the wastegate perform better for they added a larger 60mm at the right angle relative to flow, again, angle might get hard cause of tight spacing. Or you could add another, again, spacing issues. Could it be done? hmm.... yes. But I say it would be time for CATIA or Pro-Engineering CAD software to fit everything within the right constraints.

BW EFR Series turbo's have very high control over boost due to their wastegate path and location. Yes, I would trust an EFR under any high boost application. Thats why I have ordered one twin-scroll internally gated EFR for my special s2k project, along with a custom twin-scroll manifold designed by me. Think ultimate response, down low torque with great amount of flow up top for the F22C motor. When I'm done, Ill post a build thread.

Sorry not all of you may like my comments, but I think all criticism is good criticism to an extent.

Originally Posted by Ptuning,Nov 17 2010, 01:34 PM

I think it is blatantly obvious that you're promoting BW turbos in our thread. Jumping into another vendors thread and calling their work flawed is not too classy, to say the least. We were looking into BW turbos for other future projects, but I think you've given us every reason not to.

You said two things in your post that annoys me the most....."I'm and engineer" and "I own a Supra". You know that this doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make you the single authority on turbocharging, right? Just let me remind you that the Yugo, Pinto, and Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Washington, just to name a few, were also designed by a team of "engineers".....just some food for thought.

You make it sound like we messed up calculating the balance point on a seesaw with a skinny kid and a fat kid on opposite ends.....it's not that simple. You need to remember that we're not building a turbo system on an engine stand and then testing it on an engine dyno. We're limited by what we can do WITHIN the tight confines of the S2000 engine compartment. You can't always have text book perfect wastegating with every set-up. I know it pains you to hear that, but life is tough.

I would not be so peeved if you were to start a new thread and called everyone out at the same time. Let's face it, there are FAR worse wastegating designs out there. I'm sure your BW turbos are the cat's meow so maybe you should do the right thing and sponsor the site like every other honest vendor on the forum.

I'm also going to agree with everyone else that has posted here.....if you have the choice to run a 12 psi tune, but opt to run a 7psi tune, that is pretty wacked. Let's be real here too, we don't have a monopoly going on here. S2K owners have well over a dozen forced induction choices to choose from.

- Toan