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PSI vs CFM

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Old 06-30-2011, 06:21 AM
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Default PSI vs CFM

How is it that say a gtx3076 turbo can make 400hp at 8psi yet a t3/t04e(my set up) take 14+psi to do the same? Can someone give me a dumbed down yet technical reasoning how a gtx3076 can push about the same amount of air at about half the psi?
Thanks guys
Old 06-30-2011, 08:11 AM
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Thanks for that explanation Real Street
Old 06-30-2011, 09:29 AM
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great info real street
Old 06-30-2011, 09:40 AM
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Wow that was great! Some other thoughts:

CFM is cubic feet (of air) per minute. It's how much air is being moved through the system in that unit of time.

PSI is pounds per square inch. It's a measure of how compressed that quantity of air is, in that space and at that temperature.

Those two things are related with a given setup, but as Real Street explained, different setups have different CFM:PSI relationships. We use pressure to control our FI setups (via wastegate springs, boost controllers, or SC pulley choice), but that's just to protect the engine from being over-pressurized. That's why we talk about pressure so much.

Garrett has several tech articles on their website with equations showing how CFM is related to horsepower. Your dyno whp results can be used to back-calculate the CFM your setup is delivering, and the boost pressure is just telling you how efficiently it moves that air compared to other setups.
Old 06-30-2011, 09:45 AM
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Awesome dumbing down..... So more specific to me, since i am running 16lbs on a much smaller turbo what should the exhaust pressure be? Or maybe more broadly is what is a good ratio to have on turbo cars or s2000's? How do you figure/ measure the exhaust pressure?
Thanks again for the info!
Old 06-30-2011, 09:56 AM
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I don't know if any of the owners here have done it... Basically you'd have to drill a hole in the manifold and hook up a pressure sensor.
Old 06-30-2011, 10:04 AM
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hmmmmm, interesting. I have an extra pressure sensor too but man would that thing be hot! Is there a specific brand/ type that is used i wonder..... I have a lot of reading and searching i need to do today!
Old 06-30-2011, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RealStreet
A few things come into play but basically think of it in the terms of pressure and mass @ temperature. Different turbochargers can move different air masses at different efficiencies (easier understood as temperatures). If a turbocharger can move say 40lb/min of air (about 400hp) but do it more efficiently - at the given pressure, the air mass will be more dense. If it is more dense, a larger mass of air is getting in the cylinder versus the same volume.

It may be hard to understand but think of it as if you had a 2 liter of soda at room temperature you had cracked and poured a glass out of. If you reseal it, and put it in the fridge, the next time you pull it out you may notice that the container as almost 'sucked in'. When you take off the cap it will then fill and regain it's normal shape. Then you take that cold 2 liter that is now "filled back up." Reseal it and go put that in the sun. When you come back to it in 2 hours, you'll feel how tight the container is as the air and soda expanded due to the temperature change. It's not that any less air or soda is actually in the container when it gets cold or that any more is in it when the container is hot, but a substance has a certain density at a certain pressure. As the temperature goes down, it becomes more dense and the inverse is true for when the temperature goes up.

If a compressor wheel can move a certain amount of air at a lower temperature and higher density, than this turbocharger will be able to make more power at a lower 'boost level' since boost is simply a measure of the pressure of the air NOT getting into the engine...something hotter with a higher volume will create this pressure earlier (at lower horsepower) than a more efficient system.

Not only that but there is also something to be said for turbine wheels. If you have a higher flowing turbine wheel/housing combination, then it may also help an engine make more power at a given boost level. As exhaust pressure increases before the turbine wheel, it can cause flow reversion in the cylinder during camshaft overlap. I'm just using these numbers as an example, but lets say a given turbochager has 25lbs of exhaust pressure to move 400hp of air/fuel through it. Another turbocharger can get the same 400hp through it with only 15psi of exhaust pressure. This means that the clean air mass coming into the cylinder is fighting against 10 less pounds of pressure while entering the cylinder. High exhaust pressure during camshaft overlap can essentially shrink the cylinder (reduce dynamic compression ratio) since it's slowing the air mass moving into the cylinder on the intake stroke. When you look at it in these terms it's easy to see why the exhaust pressure compounded with compressor efficiency can change the power that a given turbocharger will make at a certain 'boost level'. You can see the exhaust pressure problem really start to happen when you see people with small turbine wheels or small housings dynoing on big boost, the precipitous drop in VE / horsepower is many times due to exhaust pressure stacking up and reducing the engine's ability to breathe. If you can't get air in and out, you can't make power. Generally the larger the engine, the sooner this is an issue on a given turbocharger since it's able to make a certain amount of power at a lower boost level since it's a larger engine. Obviously the turbine doesn't know what size engine it is working with, it just knows how much air and fuel is going through it. The ratio of boost pressure to exhaust pressure is what's important here.

There is a lot more to it but that should give you the basics.
In the highlighted section above.... This is exhaust back pressure that you are speaking of right? As in the exit out of the turbo and back? Im confused if it is, as if I go by torque obsessed's suggestion that the way to monitor/measure exhaust pressure by putting a sensor into the manifold would therefore be pre-turbo. Stay with me i' just going point by point.... So, if it were measured this way you'd see significantly higher pressure as you want faster velocity to spool the turbo as that is much more important than the back pressure it creates. This is why the design of the header/manifold(whichever you like to call it) tubs is much smaller on a turbo vs. a N/A car. So my question is does anyone have an explaination of where you would sensor this exhaust pressure. If it is in fact the manifold... what does one want in relationship to psi? Secondly, is there a way to calculate what size piping turbo back would best benefit the system you have. I know everyone uses 3inch but in theory 3inch probably is still too small for anything over 350hp? Thats just a guess but it is too small at some point? Is there a way to calculate this?
Old 06-30-2011, 03:38 PM
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I think he's referring to pressure building up between the cylinder head and the turbo. This reminds me of past discussions about log manifolds vs. equal length tubular. An equal length manifold allows each exhaust pressure wave to have the same distance to travel from the head to the turbine, and typically gives them a straightforward flow path. This is very efficient, and leads to lower exhaust pressures and higher horsepower levels at a given boost pressure.

Typical log manifolds (which yours is not) basically cause the exhaust pressure waves to ram into each other, at suboptimal timing intervals due to the unequal distances they travel. Then they have to find a way out through an opening on the top or side of the log to reach the turbo. This can cause exhaust reversion, sending pressure waves back to the head that interfere with the next pressure wave being pushed out. It's not efficient. That's why you get fewer horses and higher measured boost levels with logs.

Manifold design is one of the biggest factors in the results you'll get from a turbo kit. Slap the same turbo on an equal length manifold, and you'd make more power at lower psi than with a log. Going the other way, if you put a great turbo on a restrictive manifold, you don't get much. Several people have tried to swap a GT3076R onto the Greddy kit but couldn't get past 350whp because of the manifold that kit has.

You can pick up a few ponies with exhaust mods after the turbo (which you've already done), but on the S2000 that's not really where the big gains are, especially in terms of money spent for horses found. Interestingly, log manifolds seem to spool a bit faster than most equal length ones. My guess there is that it's because the exhaust has less space to fill and a shorter distance to travel. Yours is somewhere in the middle; it's not a basic log but isn't equal length either. That's why I was immediately interested when I saw the kit for sale.
Old 06-30-2011, 05:23 PM
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Good stuff ken! This is a nice and informative thread.

Real Street- How would you use/insulate the sensor with the coiled tube? Im i miss understanding or are you suggesting using the coiled tube to insulate the the actual sensor. Or do you mean using the coiled tube to go from the bung/nipple on the exhaust manifold to the sensor?

Forgive my ignorance i just need education on the matter!

Found a sick set up!
http://importsnc.com/forums/national...-race-car.html
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