KraftWerks C38 Supercharger Kit FAQ Thread
07-12-2015 | 08:42 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,749
Likes: 107
From: Waukesha, WI
KraftWerks C38 Supercharger Kit FAQ Thread
To try and keep things simple, let's try to keep KW C38 SC kit related questions or comments to this thread. Alot of confusion is following this kit and a lot of threads have been made asking questions. Let's put everything together in here and keep the FI section less cluttered. It is easier to look for information you saw on this forum if it is all in the same spot in one thread, not many.
07-12-2015 | 10:26 AM
#2
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,243
Likes: 2
From: Northern KY
Do you want to maintain a list in the first post of links to everyone's build threads and/or experiences as well?
Here's the important bits from my thread:
Here's the important bits from my thread:
<snip>
My full setup is as follows:
2004 AP2 2.2L non-DBW, 57k miles
bone stock, untouched engine
Kraftwerks C38-81 "v2.2" kit with larger revised 4 idler pulley system & revised upper mounts
Grams 1000cc injectors
Grams 320lph fuel pump
AEM V2 EMS
AEM Wideband
stock tb, im, header
Berk 70mm HFC
Invidia Q300 Dual 70mm exhaust
SOS Clutch w/ light flywheel
Evans e-Tune (sorry no whp # available for now)
Let's start with the good news! In the end, the car is an absolute blast to drive. Quite frankly it has more power than I expected or think I really *need*. The overall design seems robust for the most part, the cogged belt doesn't seem noticably noisy (I don't have an old kit to compare to though) as some have been concerned about. Once I had the correct parts, the install went very well. I'd say an easy 12-16 hr job for 2 guys, with plenty of beer breaks.
I don't have dyno numbers as I e-tuned with Evans (a really great experience, review coming soon), but I peak right at 16 psi and on an upshift only drop to 10. Traction is marginal in 3rd on cool fall roads on Star Specs with about 25% left on them. First gear is a very touchy ~50% throttle adventure. FUN!!!!!
It has been very reliable so far. Other than the coupler popping off the TB until I got the correct size for it, there have been no issues or hiccups in about300 900 miles of use.
As most other KW owners seem to have, I had several issues with shipping & getting the right parts. First, it took them 2 weeks to ship a kit that was "in stock." I'm told this was because of annual inventory. After that wait, I received an AEM EMS for a Civic/RSX, was missing one of the idler pulleys, was missing a hose clamp, and had no instructions for some of the revised/upgraded parts that were included. Once I got in touch with someone at KW the missing parts were overnighted (two seperate times even) and updated documents were emailed, but it's ridiculous to not have a correct BOM & packing list to ensure this doesn't happen. Most of the sub-boxes in the package had two signatures on them for packing QC, so there really is no excuse. As a result of all of the above, it was about 3 weeks after I started to do the install that I finally got to drive it. It could all easily be done by two guys on a weekend with all the right parts in hand.
My other issues/complaints:
- The drive pulley that mounts on the crank pulley prevents the factory method for retightening the crank pulley bolt. The instructions offer no advice in this regard. After asking a few times they finally told me to just put it in gear and hold it with the brakes. this didn't seem to work for us but we didn't try it very hard. KW should include an install plate to facilitate this step.
- The fuel injectors were a VERY tight fit, and in the end we had to dump one of the o-rings which was too large to fit into the fuel rail. No leaks, but a clear picture of how it should be installed would go a long way here. We spent probably an hour trying to figure that out for what should have been a 10 minute job.
- My kit was shipped with a different upper bracket setup from what is shown in the parts list or install instructions. Some trial & error needed to figure out how it goes together and what bolts go where. More time needlessly wasted. See post #18 for PDF's of the revisions
- The mounts for the rotrex oil reservoir and filter seem a bit marginal in design. They are each held by a single bolt, with a lot of cantilever pressure on them. They will likely be fine in the long run, but I think the design could be more robust here.
- The parts explosion drawing is very outdated, not including the new pulley system or upper bracket revision. This made it very difficult to communicate back to KW what parts I was missing.
- Many of the pics used in the install guide are not very useful for explaining the step. Many times a simple arrow or highlight would go a long way, and in some cases (i.e. the fuel injectors) there was no picture at all where one would have greatly cleared up any confusion.
- In regards to the revised upper brackets, there is one on the intake manifold side that, being held by 1 bolt, isn't constrained well from rotation. Again it will probably be OK in the long run, but the design seems less than optimal. I'd like to know why they got away from the original design.
- The included coupler from the upper charge pipe to the throttle body was a straight 3". It is very loose on the tb while a 3-2.75 reducer is a perfect fit. Why not include that instead? See post #44 for what to buy
- The charge pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body reduces to 2.5" from the 3" IC exit, then increases in a bend to 3" for the second charge pipe, then has to reduce to 2.75" for the tb. This surely adds unnecessary pressure drop. It should be a continuous 2.75" run from the intercooler to the tb. KW said in another thread on here that they tested several confugurations and went with the kit version because it met their goals, so maybe I'm incorrect on this, but my intuition says otherwise.
- The basemap tune (which was emailed after the fact, rather than included in the box) would start but wouldn't idle for more than 20 seconds. Ever. After about a week they got back to me with one that "should work," but I never bothered with it as Evans got me off to a much better start days earlier.
- The bypass valve seems to be oriented incorrectly in their instructions. Clearly you wouldn't want boost pressure against the face of the piston in that valve, but their description seems to indicate this. There is no picture in the instructions, so it's hard to be certain. I installed with the skirt of the piston exposed to boost pressure (this is how it is installed in factory turbo German cars that use it).
- There were no tension adjustment instructions for the belt drive. Only "tighten the belt and go for it!" I started with what might be slightly loose and gradually tightened it over several days. So far so good...
- You splice two coolant hoses together next to the tb as part of the install. The instructions call for an included brass barb coupler to be used, but plastic was provided. I don't trust it and had to go buy a brass one instead. Cheap, but an unnecessary trip.
- AEM only includes patches of velcro for mounting their ECU. Alloy Craft makes a fantastic bracket to mount it using the factory points, as well as an optional USB extension kit. I ran my USB direct to the mesh pocket along the trans tunnel, coiled up, rather than using their extension kit.
- T-bolt clamps are cheap enough that they should be included from the start. Their worm clamps jumped on me several times during the install. I ordered t-bolt clamps from siliconeintakes after just a couple days because I want this to be reliable and don't trust the worm gear clamps. It only cost me about $40, surely would be much cheaper for them in bulk. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- In regards to the Rotrex system design, their instructions differ from the Rotrex manual in a couple significant regards. First, their prime procedure is completely different from what Rotrex instructs. The KW method seems needlessly risky, and involves finally starting the car to pull fluid through if intermittent cranking doesn't do it first.
- Additionally, the reservoir is mounted slightly higher than the Rotrex manual explicity states is OK. I doubt it's a problem as we're only talking about an inch, but still the Rotrex manual is very specific about how their oil system is installed.
Poop-Dog has some additional thoughts in post #56
TL-DR:
- Buy t-bolt clamps for the whole system.I am working on a complete list. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- Buy a 3" to 2.75" silicone reducer to connect the charge pipe to the throttle body
- Buy a 5/16" brass barbed splice for the coolant line next to the throttle body
- Buy the AEM EMS mount from Alloy Craft (PM them on here). Mounting an expensive ECM with velcro is stupid (shame on AEM for not including a better solution)
- Use the priming instructions in the Rotrex manual, not the KW manual!!
Don't take this kit off of your list because of this post! As I said, in the end I am very happy with the result, but you need to temper your expectations about the buying process!
My full setup is as follows:
2004 AP2 2.2L non-DBW, 57k miles
bone stock, untouched engine
Kraftwerks C38-81 "v2.2" kit with larger revised 4 idler pulley system & revised upper mounts
Grams 1000cc injectors
Grams 320lph fuel pump
AEM V2 EMS
AEM Wideband
stock tb, im, header
Berk 70mm HFC
Invidia Q300 Dual 70mm exhaust
SOS Clutch w/ light flywheel
Evans e-Tune (sorry no whp # available for now)
Let's start with the good news! In the end, the car is an absolute blast to drive. Quite frankly it has more power than I expected or think I really *need*. The overall design seems robust for the most part, the cogged belt doesn't seem noticably noisy (I don't have an old kit to compare to though) as some have been concerned about. Once I had the correct parts, the install went very well. I'd say an easy 12-16 hr job for 2 guys, with plenty of beer breaks.
I don't have dyno numbers as I e-tuned with Evans (a really great experience, review coming soon), but I peak right at 16 psi and on an upshift only drop to 10. Traction is marginal in 3rd on cool fall roads on Star Specs with about 25% left on them. First gear is a very touchy ~50% throttle adventure. FUN!!!!!
It has been very reliable so far. Other than the coupler popping off the TB until I got the correct size for it, there have been no issues or hiccups in about
As most other KW owners seem to have, I had several issues with shipping & getting the right parts. First, it took them 2 weeks to ship a kit that was "in stock." I'm told this was because of annual inventory. After that wait, I received an AEM EMS for a Civic/RSX, was missing one of the idler pulleys, was missing a hose clamp, and had no instructions for some of the revised/upgraded parts that were included. Once I got in touch with someone at KW the missing parts were overnighted (two seperate times even) and updated documents were emailed, but it's ridiculous to not have a correct BOM & packing list to ensure this doesn't happen. Most of the sub-boxes in the package had two signatures on them for packing QC, so there really is no excuse. As a result of all of the above, it was about 3 weeks after I started to do the install that I finally got to drive it. It could all easily be done by two guys on a weekend with all the right parts in hand.
My other issues/complaints:
- The drive pulley that mounts on the crank pulley prevents the factory method for retightening the crank pulley bolt. The instructions offer no advice in this regard. After asking a few times they finally told me to just put it in gear and hold it with the brakes. this didn't seem to work for us but we didn't try it very hard. KW should include an install plate to facilitate this step.
- The fuel injectors were a VERY tight fit, and in the end we had to dump one of the o-rings which was too large to fit into the fuel rail. No leaks, but a clear picture of how it should be installed would go a long way here. We spent probably an hour trying to figure that out for what should have been a 10 minute job.
- My kit was shipped with a different upper bracket setup from what is shown in the parts list or install instructions. Some trial & error needed to figure out how it goes together and what bolts go where. More time needlessly wasted. See post #18 for PDF's of the revisions
- The mounts for the rotrex oil reservoir and filter seem a bit marginal in design. They are each held by a single bolt, with a lot of cantilever pressure on them. They will likely be fine in the long run, but I think the design could be more robust here.
- The parts explosion drawing is very outdated, not including the new pulley system or upper bracket revision. This made it very difficult to communicate back to KW what parts I was missing.
- Many of the pics used in the install guide are not very useful for explaining the step. Many times a simple arrow or highlight would go a long way, and in some cases (i.e. the fuel injectors) there was no picture at all where one would have greatly cleared up any confusion.
- In regards to the revised upper brackets, there is one on the intake manifold side that, being held by 1 bolt, isn't constrained well from rotation. Again it will probably be OK in the long run, but the design seems less than optimal. I'd like to know why they got away from the original design.
- The included coupler from the upper charge pipe to the throttle body was a straight 3". It is very loose on the tb while a 3-2.75 reducer is a perfect fit. Why not include that instead? See post #44 for what to buy
- The charge pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body reduces to 2.5" from the 3" IC exit, then increases in a bend to 3" for the second charge pipe, then has to reduce to 2.75" for the tb. This surely adds unnecessary pressure drop. It should be a continuous 2.75" run from the intercooler to the tb. KW said in another thread on here that they tested several confugurations and went with the kit version because it met their goals, so maybe I'm incorrect on this, but my intuition says otherwise.
- The basemap tune (which was emailed after the fact, rather than included in the box) would start but wouldn't idle for more than 20 seconds. Ever. After about a week they got back to me with one that "should work," but I never bothered with it as Evans got me off to a much better start days earlier.
- The bypass valve seems to be oriented incorrectly in their instructions. Clearly you wouldn't want boost pressure against the face of the piston in that valve, but their description seems to indicate this. There is no picture in the instructions, so it's hard to be certain. I installed with the skirt of the piston exposed to boost pressure (this is how it is installed in factory turbo German cars that use it).
- There were no tension adjustment instructions for the belt drive. Only "tighten the belt and go for it!" I started with what might be slightly loose and gradually tightened it over several days. So far so good...
- You splice two coolant hoses together next to the tb as part of the install. The instructions call for an included brass barb coupler to be used, but plastic was provided. I don't trust it and had to go buy a brass one instead. Cheap, but an unnecessary trip.
- AEM only includes patches of velcro for mounting their ECU. Alloy Craft makes a fantastic bracket to mount it using the factory points, as well as an optional USB extension kit. I ran my USB direct to the mesh pocket along the trans tunnel, coiled up, rather than using their extension kit.
- T-bolt clamps are cheap enough that they should be included from the start. Their worm clamps jumped on me several times during the install. I ordered t-bolt clamps from siliconeintakes after just a couple days because I want this to be reliable and don't trust the worm gear clamps. It only cost me about $40, surely would be much cheaper for them in bulk. See post #44 for what to buy & where.
- In regards to the Rotrex system design, their instructions differ from the Rotrex manual in a couple significant regards. First, their prime procedure is completely different from what Rotrex instructs. The KW method seems needlessly risky, and involves finally starting the car to pull fluid through if intermittent cranking doesn't do it first.
- Additionally, the reservoir is mounted slightly higher than the Rotrex manual explicity states is OK. I doubt it's a problem as we're only talking about an inch, but still the Rotrex manual is very specific about how their oil system is installed.
Poop-Dog has some additional thoughts in post #56
TL-DR:
- Buy t-bolt clamps for the whole system.
- Buy a 3" to 2.75" silicone reducer to connect the charge pipe to the throttle body
- Buy a 5/16" brass barbed splice for the coolant line next to the throttle body
- Buy the AEM EMS mount from Alloy Craft (PM them on here). Mounting an expensive ECM with velcro is stupid (shame on AEM for not including a better solution)
- Use the priming instructions in the Rotrex manual, not the KW manual!!
Don't take this kit off of your list because of this post! As I said, in the end I am very happy with the result, but you need to temper your expectations about the buying process!
07-12-2015 | 10:31 AM
#3
Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 7
From: Seattle, WA
I recently bought a kit with a C38-91 blower with the upgraded 95mm pulley for my AP1 (standard is 100mm). Here are the estimated numbers for the pulleys:
You'll see if you have the redline at 9000 with the 95mm pulley, you'll slightly overspin the blower and this pulley is rated at 15psi. However, there is only one AP1 kraftwerks build that I've seen here on s2ki and he has the C38-91 blower and the 100mm pulley. He is stating that he is boosting 15psi with the 100mm pulley. If this is true, wouldn't my 95mm pulley be boosting more? Because honestly, I don't want to be any higher than 15psi on stock internals.
You'll see if you have the redline at 9000 with the 95mm pulley, you'll slightly overspin the blower and this pulley is rated at 15psi. However, there is only one AP1 kraftwerks build that I've seen here on s2ki and he has the C38-91 blower and the 100mm pulley. He is stating that he is boosting 15psi with the 100mm pulley. If this is true, wouldn't my 95mm pulley be boosting more? Because honestly, I don't want to be any higher than 15psi on stock internals.
07-12-2015 | 12:07 PM
#4
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,938
Likes: 45
From: Baraboo, WI
Originally Posted by Habitforming
Do you want to maintain a list in the first post of links to everyone's build threads and/or experiences as well?
Here's the important bits from my thread:
Here's the important bits from my thread:
07-12-2015 | 12:28 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,749
Likes: 107
From: Waukesha, WI
I'm not interesting in doing the homework to make this happen. I think it would be helpful, but if some one wants to do the work I'll copy and paste it to the first post.
As a suggestion to all, because KW has made revisions to the kit and more will probably happen, I think everyone should always note what version kit they are. I'm not sure how many versions their are, but it would help trouble shoot questions people have if everyone knows what every version is.
As a suggestion to all, because KW has made revisions to the kit and more will probably happen, I think everyone should always note what version kit they are. I'm not sure how many versions their are, but it would help trouble shoot questions people have if everyone knows what every version is.
07-13-2015 | 12:39 AM
#7
Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 7
From: Seattle, WA
Yeah it is you who I was talking about. Why are you making so much more boost than what Kraftwerks stated that it would make (12.5 psi with 100mm pulley)? I have the 95mm and I'm worried about making even more.
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07-13-2015 | 04:55 AM
#8
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 78
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by gfresh86' timestamp='1436760532' post='23678496
I have a ap1 with the c38-91 blower. Stock 100mm pulley, making 16psi. Stock everytjing except 70mm exhaust and testpipe.460whp
I too have the C38-91 and made 16PSI max boost on my AP2 (also tuned at the same location in Pennsylvania) making 465.