Engine Knocking - Can't figure it out
07-26-2013, 05:34 PM
#11
What do you have for oil cooling? The oil might have thinned out too much due to excessive heat. Remember, power = heat. So the more power you make, the more heat goes into the coolant and oil.
07-26-2013, 05:36 PM
#12
The more you run the engine and drive it the greater chance it is scuffed up and at some point requiring a new crank. The damage is continually happening while running. I suggest that any of you suspecting rod knock or a bearing going out immediately turn the engine off and get a tow. I know several people that just drove "a mile or two home" and destroyed their cranks. A couple of them destroyed their blocks and ended up purchasing engines. 
You may be able to just replace the bearing and machine the rod journal vs replacing the expensive crank and rods by turning it off.
Used cranks are going for three to five hundred dollars locally. New run a grand or more.
07-26-2013, 05:49 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by 1SlowSi' timestamp='1374846647' post='22688550
I drove it home since I was only a couple miles down the road. Its parked and under the microscope now. You would think that this far in the game I'd have an oil pressure gauge SMH.
The more you run the engine and drive it the greater chance it is scuffed up and at some point requiring a new crank. The damage is continually happening while running. I suggest that any of you suspecting rod knock or a bearing going out immediately turn the engine off and get a tow. I know several people that just drove "a mile or two home" and destroyed their cranks. A couple of them destroyed their blocks and ended up purchasing engines. You may be able to just replace the bearing and machine the rod journal vs replacing the expensive crank and rods by turning it off.
Used cranks are going for three to five hundred dollars locally. New run a grand or more.
07-26-2013, 05:52 PM
#15
Man that isn't good. Hope it's just something simple. BTW, you probably should have been running 10w40 Amsoil and don't go over 1000 miles on e85.
07-26-2013, 06:35 PM
#16
I pulled the pan and yes there were some copper looking flakes. I've seen small particles in the past but this is a tad bit more. It's not like an OMG amount. I also played around with the rod end caps and didnt feel anything out of the ordinary. The side play between the end cap and crank were the same across all four and had no vertical play or play in any other direction if that makes sense. No metal shavings were found in any of the internal parts either. Maybe the bearing is beat up but not spun? I will post a video and pics in a few.
Also, I run Amsoil 10w30 and that oil came out watery at only 900 miles or so. If it was that thin when cold I could only imagine what it was when it was hot. It might have heated up to over 300 deg and toasted my bearings. I am not running an oil cooler. I'm going to send in an oil sample for analysis. I expect more than ~900 miles on E85 when running Amsoil stuff but who knows.
Also, I run Amsoil 10w30 and that oil came out watery at only 900 miles or so. If it was that thin when cold I could only imagine what it was when it was hot. It might have heated up to over 300 deg and toasted my bearings. I am not running an oil cooler. I'm going to send in an oil sample for analysis. I expect more than ~900 miles on E85 when running Amsoil stuff but who knows.
07-27-2013, 06:02 AM
#18
I pulled the pan and yes there were some copper looking flakes. I've seen small particles in the past but this is a tad bit more. It's not like an OMG amount. I also played around with the rod end caps and didnt feel anything out of the ordinary. The side play between the end cap and crank were the same across all four and had no vertical play or play in any other direction if that makes sense. No metal shavings were found in any of the internal parts either. Maybe the bearing is beat up but not spun? I will post a video and pics in a few.
Also, I run Amsoil 10w30 and that oil came out watery at only 900 miles or so. If it was that thin when cold I could only imagine what it was when it was hot. It might have heated up to over 300 deg and toasted my bearings. I am not running an oil cooler. I'm going to send in an oil sample for analysis. I expect more than ~900 miles on E85 when running Amsoil stuff but who knows.
Also, I run Amsoil 10w30 and that oil came out watery at only 900 miles or so. If it was that thin when cold I could only imagine what it was when it was hot. It might have heated up to over 300 deg and toasted my bearings. I am not running an oil cooler. I'm going to send in an oil sample for analysis. I expect more than ~900 miles on E85 when running Amsoil stuff but who knows.
FWIW, I run the MOBIL 1 Turbo Diesel
07-27-2013, 07:53 AM
#19
This whole dont run more than 1000 miles with E85 is confusing me. What about all the cars running around using it all the time? They certainly dont change oil that often. I assume it depends on your driving style? So your saying dont take your car on an extended trip over a 1000miles? Also if your going to change your oil every thousand miles then why buy the most expensive oil? Cheap synthetic should do then.
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07-27-2013, 09:52 AM
#20
From Cobra Forum
The reference to formic acid in that link is incorrect.I talked to my Royal Purple technical services supervisor Chris today about this thread and some of the issues raised and here is his response. "The issue with the E85 is not formic acid. Formic acid is a product of the oxidation of methanol, not ethanol. Ethanol will oxidize into acetic acid; however, the real issue is that the ethanol itself is corrosive. It is a relatively weak corrosive substance (just a bit more than water), but will cause rust and oxidation. In an automotive application, high alcohol fuels can corrode metal components in the fuel system (and damage some polymers), and free ethanol can cause internal rusting of an engine.In passenger cars made in the past 10 or 15 years, OEMs have made material changes to mitigate corrosion due to alcohol (i.e. more polymers in place of metals) and have started to use polymers and elastomers that are not as sensitive to the detrimental effects of ethanol. In a daily driven vehicle, engine corrosion due to ethanol fuel is not typically a problem, though, because most of the free ethanol will evaporate after the engine (and oil) are at operating temperature. In an infrequently driven vehicle, or worse yet, a vehicle that is operated routinely, but seldom gets to full operating temperature, free ethanol in the oil pan and other parts of the engine may cause non-trivial rust and corrosion issues.As mentioned in post #24, the current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 oil specifications have added testing to help mitigate problems associated with free ethanol inside the engine by requiring the oils do a better job of keeping ethanol mixed with the oil. The downside to these new oils is restriction on phosphorus (and therefore anti-wear additive), but in most primarily street driven (and stock) applications this is not an issue. For highly modified engines using high alcohol content fuel, a good course of action would be to:- Use an appropriate high performance motor oil- Ensure that the fuel tuning is not allowing an excessive amount of unburned fuel- Ensure that the engine is brought to full operating temperature when it is run (preferably for at least 15 to 20 minutes)- Employ conservative oil change intervals based on time, rather than miles/kms for lower use vehiclesBe aware that the alcohol should not damage most engine oils. If enough ethanol collects in the oil it will either separate which could lead to “free ethanol” problems mentioned above, or it will stay in suspension in the oil and will degrade the oils performance as it accumulates. Or maybe a little of both. Also, oil analysis will not detect free ethanol in the crankcase if it has truly separated, unless it gets into the bottle with the oil sample. Another thing to be aware of is that TBN does not do anything to the corrosive action of free alcohol or water, so a high initial TBN will have little to no impact on the bad aspects of alcohol fuels."
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The reference to formic acid in that link is incorrect.I talked to my Royal Purple technical services supervisor Chris today about this thread and some of the issues raised and here is his response. "The issue with the E85 is not formic acid. Formic acid is a product of the oxidation of methanol, not ethanol. Ethanol will oxidize into acetic acid; however, the real issue is that the ethanol itself is corrosive. It is a relatively weak corrosive substance (just a bit more than water), but will cause rust and oxidation. In an automotive application, high alcohol fuels can corrode metal components in the fuel system (and damage some polymers), and free ethanol can cause internal rusting of an engine.In passenger cars made in the past 10 or 15 years, OEMs have made material changes to mitigate corrosion due to alcohol (i.e. more polymers in place of metals) and have started to use polymers and elastomers that are not as sensitive to the detrimental effects of ethanol. In a daily driven vehicle, engine corrosion due to ethanol fuel is not typically a problem, though, because most of the free ethanol will evaporate after the engine (and oil) are at operating temperature. In an infrequently driven vehicle, or worse yet, a vehicle that is operated routinely, but seldom gets to full operating temperature, free ethanol in the oil pan and other parts of the engine may cause non-trivial rust and corrosion issues.As mentioned in post #24, the current API SN and ILSAC GF-5 oil specifications have added testing to help mitigate problems associated with free ethanol inside the engine by requiring the oils do a better job of keeping ethanol mixed with the oil. The downside to these new oils is restriction on phosphorus (and therefore anti-wear additive), but in most primarily street driven (and stock) applications this is not an issue. For highly modified engines using high alcohol content fuel, a good course of action would be to:- Use an appropriate high performance motor oil- Ensure that the fuel tuning is not allowing an excessive amount of unburned fuel- Ensure that the engine is brought to full operating temperature when it is run (preferably for at least 15 to 20 minutes)- Employ conservative oil change intervals based on time, rather than miles/kms for lower use vehiclesBe aware that the alcohol should not damage most engine oils. If enough ethanol collects in the oil it will either separate which could lead to “free ethanol” problems mentioned above, or it will stay in suspension in the oil and will degrade the oils performance as it accumulates. Or maybe a little of both. Also, oil analysis will not detect free ethanol in the crankcase if it has truly separated, unless it gets into the bottle with the oil sample. Another thing to be aware of is that TBN does not do anything to the corrosive action of free alcohol or water, so a high initial TBN will have little to no impact on the bad aspects of alcohol fuels."
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