Customizing the DBW Throttle mapping
07-01-2016, 10:16 AM
#111
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Originally Posted by shind3' timestamp='1467390533' post='24007062
[quote name='King Tut' timestamp='1467378423' post='24006876']
So my test was a complete failure last night. I swear everytime I try and mess with this it just leads me to more frustration. I set the tables up to reduce throttle plate opening from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM. The datalogs said that TPedal was 100% and TPlate was 60% at 8000RPM, yet my car didn't feel any slower, and still made 14 psi of boost no problem. This is the shit that really pisses me off. I can't believe what Hondata is telling me. There is no way that the actual throttle plate was at 60% open. Now I wasn't on the dyno to see if this made any actual change in power even though it was pulling 14 psi, but I can tell you the butt dyno felt no noticeable change. I don't know if it is just ignoring the TPlate value and doing it's own thing because the shift in plate value is too harsh? There isn't much I can do with 1,000 RPM resolution. I sure am glad that the table goes all the way to 10,000 RPM as well. Are there any other standalone options that might have better control over the DBW throttle?
So my test was a complete failure last night. I swear everytime I try and mess with this it just leads me to more frustration. I set the tables up to reduce throttle plate opening from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM. The datalogs said that TPedal was 100% and TPlate was 60% at 8000RPM, yet my car didn't feel any slower, and still made 14 psi of boost no problem. This is the shit that really pisses me off. I can't believe what Hondata is telling me. There is no way that the actual throttle plate was at 60% open. Now I wasn't on the dyno to see if this made any actual change in power even though it was pulling 14 psi, but I can tell you the butt dyno felt no noticeable change. I don't know if it is just ignoring the TPlate value and doing it's own thing because the shift in plate value is too harsh? There isn't much I can do with 1,000 RPM resolution. I sure am glad that the table goes all the way to 10,000 RPM as well. Are there any other standalone options that might have better control over the DBW throttle?
[/quote]
Most throttle bodies are oversized. They flow way more than the engine can. So as a result, you only need to open them part way for max (within a few %) flow. This can be evidenced by MAP peaking before TPS does.
I am losing energy trying to explain this to you guys. Look up Part Throttle Full Boost on Subarus with a mechanical linear throttle, lol.
Also, this will be my last post in this thread. I've said my piece but doesn't look like anyone is actually reading it with comprehension.
07-01-2016, 10:18 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by King Tut' timestamp='1467395743' post='24007131
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1467395338' post='24007127']You should limit the throttle plate across the entire RPM range to something like 40% max, then datalog some full throttle pulls. Then I would do the same thing over and over again raising max throttle by a set percent increment (flat across the whole rev range). That way you can plot the response out on a graph, which will help you calculate the non-linear throttle map that you will need.
[/quote]
Yep. The Hondata datalog showed the proper TPlate value being set. I am just convinced that the ECU ignored what TPlate said and the throttle remained at the TPedal value of 100%. I also tried your idea and rescaled the two tables so that the last 4 columns were useful, and that made no difference either. The TPlate value is definitely being set correctly, it is just being ignored.
07-01-2016, 10:24 AM
#113
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Originally Posted by King Tut' timestamp='1467394353' post='24007116
[quote name='shind3' timestamp='1467390533' post='24007062']
[quote name='King Tut' timestamp='1467378423' post='24006876']
So my test was a complete failure last night. I swear everytime I try and mess with this it just leads me to more frustration. I set the tables up to reduce throttle plate opening from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM. The datalogs said that TPedal was 100% and TPlate was 60% at 8000RPM, yet my car didn't feel any slower, and still made 14 psi of boost no problem. This is the shit that really pisses me off. I can't believe what Hondata is telling me. There is no way that the actual throttle plate was at 60% open. Now I wasn't on the dyno to see if this made any actual change in power even though it was pulling 14 psi, but I can tell you the butt dyno felt no noticeable change. I don't know if it is just ignoring the TPlate value and doing it's own thing because the shift in plate value is too harsh? There isn't much I can do with 1,000 RPM resolution. I sure am glad that the table goes all the way to 10,000 RPM as well. Are there any other standalone options that might have better control over the DBW throttle?
[quote name='King Tut' timestamp='1467378423' post='24006876']
So my test was a complete failure last night. I swear everytime I try and mess with this it just leads me to more frustration. I set the tables up to reduce throttle plate opening from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM. The datalogs said that TPedal was 100% and TPlate was 60% at 8000RPM, yet my car didn't feel any slower, and still made 14 psi of boost no problem. This is the shit that really pisses me off. I can't believe what Hondata is telling me. There is no way that the actual throttle plate was at 60% open. Now I wasn't on the dyno to see if this made any actual change in power even though it was pulling 14 psi, but I can tell you the butt dyno felt no noticeable change. I don't know if it is just ignoring the TPlate value and doing it's own thing because the shift in plate value is too harsh? There isn't much I can do with 1,000 RPM resolution. I sure am glad that the table goes all the way to 10,000 RPM as well. Are there any other standalone options that might have better control over the DBW throttle?
[/quote]
Most throttle bodies are oversized. They flow way more than the engine can. So as a result, you only need to open them part way for max (within a few %) flow. This can be evidenced by MAP peaking before TPS does.
I am losing energy trying to explain this to you guys. Look up Part Throttle Full Boost on Subarus with a mechanical linear throttle, lol.
Also, this will be my last post in this thread. I've said my piece but doesn't look like anyone is actually reading it with comprehension.
[/quote]
What the hell does MAP peaking mean? 4 bar of boost is MAP peaking in my book. You make blanket statements, but don't provide answers to actual questions. You refrence things that aren't relevant. What would you suggest I do to go from making 14 psi at 6000 RPM to 7 psi at 8000 RPM? How much do you think the throttle plate needs to be closed? Are you saying that the car is actually closing the throttle plate to 60% and that it is causing no restriction or loss in power?
07-12-2016, 09:59 AM
#116
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Originally Posted by Gernby' timestamp='1467408134' post='24007306
I assure you it is not being ignored. I rely on the throttle mapping extensively for etuning.
07-12-2016, 11:00 AM
#117
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Originally Posted by King Tut' timestamp='1468345623' post='24014835
[quote name='Gernby' timestamp='1467408134' post='24007306']
I assure you it is not being ignored. I rely on the throttle mapping extensively for etuning.
I assure you it is not being ignored. I rely on the throttle mapping extensively for etuning.
[/quote]
I know all about your uses of the throttle mapping to fill out the load points in the fueling tables, but you don't deal with boost, and you certainly don't ask the throttle to go from 100% to 50% from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM in the process of tuning these naturally aspirated cars. What you call extreme is fairly simple and limiting throttle to fill out load points isn't unreasonable to the ECU. I will have some more time to mess around with this stuff in the coming weeks. shind3 might be right in that the throttle plate just isn't a big enough restriction unless it is very closed to stop the motor from building boost. I will go more extreme with my values and start closing the throttle earlier in the RPM range as well. I don't care what the values or the boost ends up being in the end. All I care about is that I know it is working, and to have the longest and flattest power curve I can create.
07-12-2016, 12:22 PM
#118
I haven't been following the responses recently but I will later tonight but just a quick response to Tut's issue. You probably just need to close the throttle plate more. If 60% is still resulting in full boost, try 40%. If that doesn't work try 30% and keep going down.. One could certainly argue that just using the throttle plate to solely control boost (assuming your wastegate isn't opening) probably isn't the best way. This is why electronic boost controllers exist (to alter the wastegate opening), but that's obviously a different discussion entirely.
I full understand what you're saying shind regarding hitting "peak map" on part throttle. I've been playing with hondas for the better part of 2 decades now, and started playing with hondata back when I had to burn eeproms in what 2002? On my old turbo integra I'd see boost with very light throttle. My point is that I understand all that and simply wanted the pedal to act like a normal cable throttle. With the recent release it does and I'm a happy camper. Maybe I'll respond later to your long winded posts but my short answer is I understand all that.
I full understand what you're saying shind regarding hitting "peak map" on part throttle. I've been playing with hondas for the better part of 2 decades now, and started playing with hondata back when I had to burn eeproms in what 2002? On my old turbo integra I'd see boost with very light throttle. My point is that I understand all that and simply wanted the pedal to act like a normal cable throttle. With the recent release it does and I'm a happy camper. Maybe I'll respond later to your long winded posts but my short answer is I understand all that.
07-14-2016, 10:10 AM
#119
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I know all about your uses of the throttle mapping to fill out the load points in the fueling tables, but you don't deal with boost, and you certainly don't ask the throttle to go from 100% to 50% from 6000 RPM to 8000 RPM in the process of tuning these naturally aspirated cars. What you call extreme is fairly simple and limiting throttle to fill out load points isn't unreasonable to the ECU. I will have some more time to mess around with this stuff in the coming weeks. shind3 might be right in that the throttle plate just isn't a big enough restriction unless it is very closed to stop the motor from building boost. I will go more extreme with my values and start closing the throttle earlier in the RPM range as well. I don't care what the values or the boost ends up being in the end. All I care about is that I know it is working, and to have the longest and flattest power curve I can create.
07-19-2016, 05:59 AM
#120
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Have I done a tune for you? I have posted some things about the throttle tables for tuning purposes, but I haven't posted about how I use them for eTuning. My use of DBW mapping for eTuning is more extreme than what you need. I think you are way underestimating how quickly the DBW mechanism can respond.