Trouble with deciding which Sway Bar to upgrade
03-01-2024, 07:03 AM
#1
Trouble with deciding which Sway Bar to upgrade
I have an 06, im running stock wheel specs (staggard), i have a white line cross brace, and a Dev Sport front splitter (which helps a shit ton at highway speeds), and Tein flex Z coils ( have not changed spring rate yet).
Im wondering should i increase the front sway bar stiffness? Or the rear bar? I like hitting curvy backs roads pretty fast and the highways as well, bc i know the limits of this car already, and looking forward to taking it to the track soon. (Which Ik i everyone is going to say tires tires tires) but for now my budget is just in sway bars.
any imput would be nice, im dyslexic when it comes to oversteer and understeer, so if you can put it in lame mans terms or explain it like youre talking to a 5 year old it would be great lol. Thank you for any sort of response.
Im wondering should i increase the front sway bar stiffness? Or the rear bar? I like hitting curvy backs roads pretty fast and the highways as well, bc i know the limits of this car already, and looking forward to taking it to the track soon. (Which Ik i everyone is going to say tires tires tires) but for now my budget is just in sway bars.
any imput would be nice, im dyslexic when it comes to oversteer and understeer, so if you can put it in lame mans terms or explain it like youre talking to a 5 year old it would be great lol. Thank you for any sort of response.
03-01-2024, 10:00 AM
#2
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Leave the stock swaybars on until you decide that you want to change the sway bar for some reason.
There's no right bar for everyone. So...anyone's recommendations are just gonna stem from whatever they're using.
Under steer is when you turn the steering wheel and the car plows forward instead of turning. Your front tires have lost grip.
Over steer is when the rear tires have lost grip and the car is fishtailing.
You're driving the car. So you are going to determine which of the above you want the car to do. You place the order. The car delivers what you ordered via physics. Nothing else determines oversteer or understeer besides the driver.
A big front sway bar will stabilize the front of the car and the car will tend toward under steer. As in...you will have to work harder to make it oversteer and work less hard to make it under steer.
The opposite is true for a big rear sway bar.
That's the most basic explanation and just the tip of the iceberg. The real explanation is massively complex.
There is nothing wrong with the stock sway bars. You do not *need* a swaybar. You may *want* a sway bar at some point. Which one you want depends on what you want the the car to do or not do.
There's no right bar for everyone. So...anyone's recommendations are just gonna stem from whatever they're using.
Under steer is when you turn the steering wheel and the car plows forward instead of turning. Your front tires have lost grip.
Over steer is when the rear tires have lost grip and the car is fishtailing.
You're driving the car. So you are going to determine which of the above you want the car to do. You place the order. The car delivers what you ordered via physics. Nothing else determines oversteer or understeer besides the driver.
A big front sway bar will stabilize the front of the car and the car will tend toward under steer. As in...you will have to work harder to make it oversteer and work less hard to make it under steer.
The opposite is true for a big rear sway bar.
That's the most basic explanation and just the tip of the iceberg. The real explanation is massively complex.
There is nothing wrong with the stock sway bars. You do not *need* a swaybar. You may *want* a sway bar at some point. Which one you want depends on what you want the the car to do or not do.
03-01-2024, 10:46 AM
#3
Leave the stock swaybars on until you decide that you want to change the sway bar for some reason.
There's no right bar for everyone. So...anyone's recommendations are just gonna stem from whatever they're using.
Under steer is when you turn the steering wheel and the car plows forward instead of turning. Your front tires have lost grip.
Over steer is when the rear tires have lost grip and the car is fishtailing.
You're driving the car. So you are going to determine which of the above you want the car to do. You place the order. The car delivers what you ordered via physics. Nothing else determines oversteer or understeer besides the driver.
A big front sway bar will stabilize the front of the car and the car will tend toward under steer. As in...you will have to work harder to make it oversteer and work less hard to make it under steer.
The opposite is true for a big rear sway bar.
That's the most basic explanation and just the tip of the iceberg. The real explanation is massively complex.
There is nothing wrong with the stock sway bars. You do not *need* a swaybar. You may *want* a sway bar at some point. Which one you want depends on what you want the the car to do or not do.
There's no right bar for everyone. So...anyone's recommendations are just gonna stem from whatever they're using.
Under steer is when you turn the steering wheel and the car plows forward instead of turning. Your front tires have lost grip.
Over steer is when the rear tires have lost grip and the car is fishtailing.
You're driving the car. So you are going to determine which of the above you want the car to do. You place the order. The car delivers what you ordered via physics. Nothing else determines oversteer or understeer besides the driver.
A big front sway bar will stabilize the front of the car and the car will tend toward under steer. As in...you will have to work harder to make it oversteer and work less hard to make it under steer.
The opposite is true for a big rear sway bar.
That's the most basic explanation and just the tip of the iceberg. The real explanation is massively complex.
There is nothing wrong with the stock sway bars. You do not *need* a swaybar. You may *want* a sway bar at some point. Which one you want depends on what you want the the car to do or not do.
03-01-2024, 10:55 AM
#4
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illnoise. WAY downtown, jerky.
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To counter that would be to adjust your driving. Again, you're ordering the oversteer. The car is delivering.
You can make it harder for the car to deliver the oversteer by installing a stiffer front sway bar. But eventually, it will deliver it. And usually in a bigger dose.
The AP2 isn't easily prone to oversteer, so you must be asking the car to oversteer pretty hard.
Make sure the alignment is good, though. A bad alignment can cause the car to behave unexpectedly.
Save your money and buy tires, brakes, and track time. Learn the car instead of trying to mod it for one situation. Probably not what you wanna hear because it sounds like you have a couple hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
But if you absolutely have to buy a sway bar, buy a larger front bar. It'll at least add some safety.
You can make it harder for the car to deliver the oversteer by installing a stiffer front sway bar. But eventually, it will deliver it. And usually in a bigger dose.
The AP2 isn't easily prone to oversteer, so you must be asking the car to oversteer pretty hard.
Make sure the alignment is good, though. A bad alignment can cause the car to behave unexpectedly.
Save your money and buy tires, brakes, and track time. Learn the car instead of trying to mod it for one situation. Probably not what you wanna hear because it sounds like you have a couple hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
But if you absolutely have to buy a sway bar, buy a larger front bar. It'll at least add some safety.
03-01-2024, 10:59 AM
#5
By far most upgrade to a large front bar. But, a lot of it is learning to drive the car better. Not a dig at you in any way but people tend to amplify the oversteery nature of a RWD with driving habits (lifting or braking in a turn, for example or inputs not being smooth enough).
Karcepts is a great front bar choice and is very common.
Increasing front bar thickness (relative to rear) shifts the car towards understeer. Increasing rear bar thickness (relative to front) increases oversteer. So if you are using bars to reduce the tendancy to oversteer, then you would increase front bar stiffness.
But, even if you do that, if you are lifting/braking too late into corner entry the car is going to want to come around on you. So still focus on how smoothly you are transitioning into a corner. You can use that rotation on lift to your advantage sometimes when you get comfortable with the car, but it can also sneak up and bite you.
As mentioned, learn the car, get used to driving it and then start adjusting things. Just get out there, drive within your limits and start getting more familiar with the car.
But if you are going to the track, please put your budget into good track pads and proper fluid before going. Those are by far the most important things. Motul RBF600 or similar is a good choice. Flush the entire brake system. The fluid spec'd in a steet car will boil under enough heavy braking and you will have no brakes when you need them most. And even with high temp fluid, it collects moisture with age. Mine is used a lot on track and I flush with fresh fluid yearly and bleed between each event.
Karcepts is a great front bar choice and is very common.
Increasing front bar thickness (relative to rear) shifts the car towards understeer. Increasing rear bar thickness (relative to front) increases oversteer. So if you are using bars to reduce the tendancy to oversteer, then you would increase front bar stiffness.
But, even if you do that, if you are lifting/braking too late into corner entry the car is going to want to come around on you. So still focus on how smoothly you are transitioning into a corner. You can use that rotation on lift to your advantage sometimes when you get comfortable with the car, but it can also sneak up and bite you.
As mentioned, learn the car, get used to driving it and then start adjusting things. Just get out there, drive within your limits and start getting more familiar with the car.
But if you are going to the track, please put your budget into good track pads and proper fluid before going. Those are by far the most important things. Motul RBF600 or similar is a good choice. Flush the entire brake system. The fluid spec'd in a steet car will boil under enough heavy braking and you will have no brakes when you need them most. And even with high temp fluid, it collects moisture with age. Mine is used a lot on track and I flush with fresh fluid yearly and bleed between each event.
The following users liked this post:
JoeV21 (03-01-2024)
03-01-2024, 11:01 AM
#6
To counter that would be to adjust your driving. Again, you're ordering the oversteer. The car is delivering.
You can make it harder for the car to deliver the oversteer by installing a stiffer front sway bar. But eventually, it will deliver it. And usually in a bigger dose.
The AP2 isn't easily prone to oversteer, so you must be asking the car to oversteer pretty hard.
Make sure the alignment is good, though. A bad alignment can cause the car to behave unexpectedly.
Save your money and buy tires, brakes, and track time. Learn the car instead of trying to mod it for one situation. Probably not what you wanna hear because it sounds like you have a couple hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
But if you absolutely have to buy a sway bar, buy a larger front bar. It'll at least add some safety.
You can make it harder for the car to deliver the oversteer by installing a stiffer front sway bar. But eventually, it will deliver it. And usually in a bigger dose.
The AP2 isn't easily prone to oversteer, so you must be asking the car to oversteer pretty hard.
Make sure the alignment is good, though. A bad alignment can cause the car to behave unexpectedly.
Save your money and buy tires, brakes, and track time. Learn the car instead of trying to mod it for one situation. Probably not what you wanna hear because it sounds like you have a couple hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
But if you absolutely have to buy a sway bar, buy a larger front bar. It'll at least add some safety.
Thank you again
03-01-2024, 11:03 AM
#7
Also, if there are autocross events (especially test n tunes with lots and lots of runs to have) near you, that is a good way to drive the car to its limits and learn how it behaves in a safer and cheaper environment as well. You will put the car through more abrupt transitions on an autox course and you will find those limits quickly as well as how to manage them.
The following users liked this post:
JoeV21 (03-01-2024)
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03-01-2024, 11:06 AM
#8
By far most upgrade to a large front bar. But, a lot of it is learning to drive the car better. Not a dig at you in any way but people tend to amplify the oversteery nature of a RWD with driving habits (lifting or braking in a turn, for example or inputs not being smooth enough).
Karcepts is a great front bar choice and is very common.
Increasing front bar thickness (relative to rear) shifts the car towards understeer. Increasing rear bar thickness (relative to front) increases oversteer. So if you are using bars to reduce the tendancy to oversteer, then you would increase front bar stiffness.
But, even if you do that, if you are lifting/braking too late into corner entry the car is going to want to come around on you. So still focus on how smoothly you are transitioning into a corner. You can use that rotation on lift to your advantage sometimes when you get comfortable with the car, but it can also sneak up and bite you.
As mentioned, learn the car, get used to driving it and then start adjusting things. Just get out there, drive within your limits and start getting more familiar with the car.
But if you are going to the track, please put your budget into good track pads and proper fluid before going. Those are by far the most important things. Motul RBF600 or similar is a good choice. Flush the entire brake system. The fluid spec'd in a steet car will boil under enough heavy braking and you will have no brakes when you need them most. And even with high temp fluid, it collects moisture with age. Mine is used a lot on track and I flush with fresh fluid yearly and bleed between each event.
Karcepts is a great front bar choice and is very common.
Increasing front bar thickness (relative to rear) shifts the car towards understeer. Increasing rear bar thickness (relative to front) increases oversteer. So if you are using bars to reduce the tendancy to oversteer, then you would increase front bar stiffness.
But, even if you do that, if you are lifting/braking too late into corner entry the car is going to want to come around on you. So still focus on how smoothly you are transitioning into a corner. You can use that rotation on lift to your advantage sometimes when you get comfortable with the car, but it can also sneak up and bite you.
As mentioned, learn the car, get used to driving it and then start adjusting things. Just get out there, drive within your limits and start getting more familiar with the car.
But if you are going to the track, please put your budget into good track pads and proper fluid before going. Those are by far the most important things. Motul RBF600 or similar is a good choice. Flush the entire brake system. The fluid spec'd in a steet car will boil under enough heavy braking and you will have no brakes when you need them most. And even with high temp fluid, it collects moisture with age. Mine is used a lot on track and I flush with fresh fluid yearly and bleed between each event.
ill take into account what all you guys have been saying and like you said keep driving and figuring how the car truly handles
Thank you for the track advice as well, i wasn't away of some of that
03-01-2024, 11:13 AM
#9
i did notice about the proper breaking and all that on corners, i usually let off the gas as i hit corners and the engine slow itself down, and one i make the initial turn i give it some gas
ill take into account what all you guys have been saying and like you said keep driving and figuring how the car truly handles
Thank you for the track advice as well, i wasn't away of some of that
ill take into account what all you guys have been saying and like you said keep driving and figuring how the car truly handles
Thank you for the track advice as well, i wasn't away of some of that
Enjoy the new addiction
03-01-2024, 11:15 AM
#10
Start thinking of things in terms of weight transfer and it really helps. When you lift or brake, weight shifts to the front, rear gets lighter and that can make the rear end get loose. This holds true until you really over work the fronts and they break loose. Same goes for getting on the gas up until the point of overpowering the rear tires. You want to try to keep the weight where you need the most traction in general. So as you learn the car more start trying to be aware of which side or end of the car you are moving weight to and from. Sounds like a lot to think about in the heat of the moment but just having that in the back of your mind will help you feel what is going on with the car and will help you smooth out the inputs a bit.
Enjoy the new addiction
Enjoy the new addiction