TRACK: Lap Attack! Series @ PGP Motorsports Park
thank you very much
10-14-2010, 02:52 PM
#352
Registered User
^ actually I thin k that this would be a podium time in my version. The only cars that would beat you would be ray in his elise, and possibly John floyd in his s2k.
As far as stock power miatas running 1:11; I kind of doubt it. From all of the events that I have been to, I belive that I have the fastest NA miata. I am not saying that this is the best that can be done. I am not saying that if Jared or bundy or any of the top drivers got in my car that they wouldn't be any faster. I could try to reduce weight and spend $800 to put some hoosiers on, but then I am looking at a car that would be what two seconds faster? That's still only a 1:13.
I would agree with the argument that an s2k of elise on r-comps could run 1:11, but putting jared aside, no one else has.(that i have seen or heard)
Lets say that we did do the straight novice, street, r-comp. WHat would that change?
novice would be interesting the first few events while the people who reall shouldn't be in that class participated.
street would depend on who decided to run that class. If we made a rule saying that jared, bundy,deitz,petty, and anyone running under 1:12 could not participate then it would make thngs more interesting. Otherwise you would potentially have the top guys swapping tires, and still have the same three guys winning everything.
R-comp would be unchanged. the top three would still win everything, and anyone else runniung r-comps would be screwed.
If we were to do it like that, I would suggest not changing anything at all. All that we would accomplish is that the same three people would have a shot at 2 podiums apiece, and the fwd cars would now not be competitive at all.
At least the way i want to split it would make it so there would be new winners for certain. and the only people who would feel like they were getting the shaft would be junky, the guy with the rx7 and possibly some of the slower FWD guys. And honestly, I still think that junky and the rx7 would have a legitimate shot at the podium. If everything went exactly like it did at the last event, they would both be on the podium in NA/r-comp-FI/street. The only people that would have a bit of a leg up would be ray, John, and any other well preped s2k/NA lotus's. The only chance that i see of a miata getting on the podium would be if the s2k's decided not to show up. I am sure that with the right driver a stripped and track preped miata on r-comps would be faster than an s2k with springs on star specs, but no one in a miata has broken into the 1:14's so far, and I don't see it happening unless I/someone decides to spend another $1500 to get wider wheels and stickier tires.
NA street would likely be won by an s2k on star spacs or another light weight well preped car. It might be a miata, but I believe that the fasted miata on street tires has only ran about 1:17 so far.
As far as stock power miatas running 1:11; I kind of doubt it. From all of the events that I have been to, I belive that I have the fastest NA miata. I am not saying that this is the best that can be done. I am not saying that if Jared or bundy or any of the top drivers got in my car that they wouldn't be any faster. I could try to reduce weight and spend $800 to put some hoosiers on, but then I am looking at a car that would be what two seconds faster? That's still only a 1:13.
I would agree with the argument that an s2k of elise on r-comps could run 1:11, but putting jared aside, no one else has.(that i have seen or heard)
Lets say that we did do the straight novice, street, r-comp. WHat would that change?
novice would be interesting the first few events while the people who reall shouldn't be in that class participated.
street would depend on who decided to run that class. If we made a rule saying that jared, bundy,deitz,petty, and anyone running under 1:12 could not participate then it would make thngs more interesting. Otherwise you would potentially have the top guys swapping tires, and still have the same three guys winning everything.
R-comp would be unchanged. the top three would still win everything, and anyone else runniung r-comps would be screwed.
If we were to do it like that, I would suggest not changing anything at all. All that we would accomplish is that the same three people would have a shot at 2 podiums apiece, and the fwd cars would now not be competitive at all.
At least the way i want to split it would make it so there would be new winners for certain. and the only people who would feel like they were getting the shaft would be junky, the guy with the rx7 and possibly some of the slower FWD guys. And honestly, I still think that junky and the rx7 would have a legitimate shot at the podium. If everything went exactly like it did at the last event, they would both be on the podium in NA/r-comp-FI/street. The only people that would have a bit of a leg up would be ray, John, and any other well preped s2k/NA lotus's. The only chance that i see of a miata getting on the podium would be if the s2k's decided not to show up. I am sure that with the right driver a stripped and track preped miata on r-comps would be faster than an s2k with springs on star specs, but no one in a miata has broken into the 1:14's so far, and I don't see it happening unless I/someone decides to spend another $1500 to get wider wheels and stickier tires.
NA street would likely be won by an s2k on star spacs or another light weight well preped car. It might be a miata, but I believe that the fasted miata on street tires has only ran about 1:17 so far.
10-14-2010, 03:28 PM
#353
Registered User
I would agree with the argument that an s2k of elise on r-comps could run 1:11, but putting jared aside, no one else has.(that i have seen or heard)
Take the turbo off Bob's car and I bet he can easily put down a 1:10. He's currently at 1:08.2?
RT's done 1:13's? in the Elise on old R888's. Put Hoosiers on and watch him hit 1:11's (let me drive and I'll run a 1:10
). Small displacement NA cars with R-comps can be very fast on this track. Elises should be killing S2000's.How about a rule that only allows each driver to enter one class. I don't think anybody saw the Dietz multi-class move coming and it made a mess logistically.
The fastest guys could still choose to run street tires and own the street tire class but that's because there are a handfull of good drivers with well developed cars. If others want to compete, they'll need to step up the car prep. This isn't spec racing. For example, I'll need some A6/R6/V710's if I want to stay on the podium. The competition has improved and my worn out R888's can't keep up.
10-14-2010, 04:11 PM
#354
Registered User
^ I agree with everything that you said in that post.
The only place where I would make a comment is that while I am sure that bob could run 1:10NA, as could a well preped s2k on good r-comps, we don't have anyone doing that. I bet that with a good enough driver my car could run 1:10 just by puting some A6's on it. However, we are not dealing with a bunch of world class drivers, and most of the cars that come out to these events are not super modified.
The one point that we all do seem to agree on is that we are trying to make a class system where the most people have a shot at the top 5 or so in their class.
I think a good way to solve part of our debate would be to look at the results from the last two events, take each person's best single lap time CW or CCW and try to remember what car they were driving and if it were FI/NA/street/r-comp. That way we could see what timesvs setup we have actually had without speculating, and without just looking at miata, s2k, and ray times.
here are the results
http://www.pacificgp.com/images/stories/si...tackScoring.pdf
The only place where I would make a comment is that while I am sure that bob could run 1:10NA, as could a well preped s2k on good r-comps, we don't have anyone doing that. I bet that with a good enough driver my car could run 1:10 just by puting some A6's on it. However, we are not dealing with a bunch of world class drivers, and most of the cars that come out to these events are not super modified.
The one point that we all do seem to agree on is that we are trying to make a class system where the most people have a shot at the top 5 or so in their class.
I think a good way to solve part of our debate would be to look at the results from the last two events, take each person's best single lap time CW or CCW and try to remember what car they were driving and if it were FI/NA/street/r-comp. That way we could see what timesvs setup we have actually had without speculating, and without just looking at miata, s2k, and ray times.
here are the results
http://www.pacificgp.com/images/stories/si...tackScoring.pdf
10-14-2010, 04:54 PM
#356
I've been referencing the lap times often, but since I was only at the last event, I don't really know what most of the cars are or what tires they were running.
O'Farrel/Urness - Evo 8, lots of power, R comps (1:10)
Dietz (AWD) - WRX, R comps? (1:09)
Petty - FI Ariel, R comp (1:06)
Jared - FI S2000, R comp (1:10)
John - NA S2000, R comp (1:14)
Bundy - FI Miata, R comp (1:09)
Dietz - NA Z06, R comp (1:09)
Pirih - NA Exige, R comp? (1:13)
Tan - NA S2000, street (1:15)
.
.
.
.
Is there any substantial benefit to having just 3 classes? We have that now and I think it was agreed that 3 isn't enough to get many people interested, especially when one (AWD) seems to be less popular.
Jerry/Jared's proposal (novice / street / R comp)
Easy, but I don't really see it as a huge improvement, except for n00bs having a chance to win. R comp will be dominated by the same 4-5 guys; street class will be competitive among the S2000/Lotus/Atom group but pretty much anything FWD or AWD is hosed, novice ropes people in but isn't a long lasting class. This is a good deal for guys like Junky, Alfy, Lig, RT, etc. The wrong wheel drive guys will probably disappear. From our group's perspective this is a win, from PGP's probably less so because it screws over the entire FWD/AWD group except a handful of very fast cars/drivers.
Chris's proposal (NA/street / NA/ r-comp+FI/street / FI/r-comp [novice winner?])
Fairly easy. Good for the NA S2000/Lotus group again. The middle group would probably be competitive and the most interesting. The last group is the usual suspects, but would probably be a small category (6 cars?). FWD/AWD gets hosed again, an Evo on street tires would struggle against an S2000 on R comps, but they're probably better off here than they are in the above categories.
WSB/RT proposal ( Street tire(any engine) / FI / NA < 1.9 / NA >= 1.9 / fastest novice)
Good for Junky who can mop up street tire
FI category gets most of the fastest cars, two NA categories splits up The S2000s, Lotuses, Ariels, Miatas, and gives the gutted Hondas a fighting chance against the Miatas and Lotuses. Evo/STi crowd would be reasonably competitive in street tire. 13 trophies vs 9 (not my money ). Shift the NA displacement as desired depending on where you want the S2000s.
O'Farrel/Urness - Evo 8, lots of power, R comps (1:10)
Dietz (AWD) - WRX, R comps? (1:09)
Petty - FI Ariel, R comp (1:06)
Jared - FI S2000, R comp (1:10)
John - NA S2000, R comp (1:14)
Bundy - FI Miata, R comp (1:09)
Dietz - NA Z06, R comp (1:09)
Pirih - NA Exige, R comp? (1:13)
Tan - NA S2000, street (1:15)
.
.
.
.
Is there any substantial benefit to having just 3 classes? We have that now and I think it was agreed that 3 isn't enough to get many people interested, especially when one (AWD) seems to be less popular.
Jerry/Jared's proposal (novice / street / R comp)
Easy, but I don't really see it as a huge improvement, except for n00bs having a chance to win. R comp will be dominated by the same 4-5 guys; street class will be competitive among the S2000/Lotus/Atom group but pretty much anything FWD or AWD is hosed, novice ropes people in but isn't a long lasting class. This is a good deal for guys like Junky, Alfy, Lig, RT, etc. The wrong wheel drive guys will probably disappear. From our group's perspective this is a win, from PGP's probably less so because it screws over the entire FWD/AWD group except a handful of very fast cars/drivers.
Chris's proposal (NA/street / NA/ r-comp+FI/street / FI/r-comp [novice winner?])
Fairly easy. Good for the NA S2000/Lotus group again. The middle group would probably be competitive and the most interesting. The last group is the usual suspects, but would probably be a small category (6 cars?). FWD/AWD gets hosed again, an Evo on street tires would struggle against an S2000 on R comps, but they're probably better off here than they are in the above categories.
WSB/RT proposal ( Street tire(any engine) / FI / NA < 1.9 / NA >= 1.9 / fastest novice)
Good for Junky who can mop up street tire
FI category gets most of the fastest cars, two NA categories splits up The S2000s, Lotuses, Ariels, Miatas, and gives the gutted Hondas a fighting chance against the Miatas and Lotuses. Evo/STi crowd would be reasonably competitive in street tire. 13 trophies vs 9 (not my money ). Shift the NA displacement as desired depending on where you want the S2000s.
10-14-2010, 05:00 PM
#357
Registered User
these are the best individual RWD times for all four events. the legend is tire/natural or forced induction. Please fill in any that I don't know. or got wrong. (look for ?????? that's what i'll put if i am not sure.)
Mark petty- 1:06.25 R/FI atom
Jared floyd- 1:09.634 R/FI s2k
kevin Dietz- 1:08.886 R/NA8cyl vette
John floyd- 1:14.509 R/NA s2k
Bob Bundy- 1:08.744 R/FI miata
Tanit koonpraset 1:15.580 S/FI rx7 ????????
Duncan 1:15.787 ??????????????????????????
Pirih 1:13.659 ??????????????????????????
Adam kingsly 1:16.090 R/NA miata
Chric Clay 1:15.339 R/NA miata
Waterfall 1:15.941 ??????????????????????????
Alfonso Tan 1:15.135 S/NA s2k
Wilson 1:11.415 ?????????????????????????
Jay Allison 1:13.968 R/FI Atom
Lee 1:12.380 ??????????????????
Brandon Knot 1:12.380 R/FI Atom
Larson 1:10.680 R/FI Atom
Blake 1:11.266 ?????????????????????
Craig Jones 1:15.191 ?????????????????????
Lowe 1:12.670 ??????????????????
Shinn 1:13.991 ??????????????????????
Ray tai 1:13.972 R/NA Elise (better time has been done)
Geddes 1:15.285 ????????????????????
Jenkins 1:15.801 ????????????????????????
Tso 1:15.341 ?????????????????
Andrew pounder 1:16.923 S/NA s2k
John mann 1:17.261 ????????????????????
Bodhaine 1:16.957 ??????????????????
Mckissack 1:18.754 ????????????????
Wright 1:14.947 R/FI Atom
Brice allen 1:17.548 ??????????????????????
Russell 1:19.431 ??????????????????
Brian Pounder 1:22.076 S/NA s2k
There are a lot of hole in the data, and I know that people seem to get faster each time they come out, but it seems through the half-ish of the data that I could remember, that there is going to be a gap somewhere, but a tire only class is going to continue the same treend of having the same 3 or 4 people win their class.
If we did run tire classes, I would be rather suprised to see anything other that a Alfy, koon, junky podium. Where if we did a NA/R-FI/S class you would see RT win everytime he showed up with the next 6 or seven places being very close, prolly within 2-2.5 seconds.
Yes it IS POSSIBLE for an NA s2k, lotus, or miata to be running 1:12 or even as low as 1:10, but as far as I have seen and our lap attack has seen, that has not happened. Why try to make specific rules against something that is not all that likely to happen. I don't see any one who would fit into this class going out and buying A6's. They are too spendy, and wear way too fast. The biggest risk to this class becoming non-competitive would be Ray getting better tires; which i doubt he will. (I would not consider Nitto's much improvment) There is also the risk that s2k's will start getting r-comps are running low teens or possibly into the 12's but again, this hasn't happened yet, so I doubt that it will.
Mark petty- 1:06.25 R/FI atom
Jared floyd- 1:09.634 R/FI s2k
kevin Dietz- 1:08.886 R/NA8cyl vette
John floyd- 1:14.509 R/NA s2k
Bob Bundy- 1:08.744 R/FI miata
Tanit koonpraset 1:15.580 S/FI rx7 ????????
Duncan 1:15.787 ??????????????????????????
Pirih 1:13.659 ??????????????????????????
Adam kingsly 1:16.090 R/NA miata
Chric Clay 1:15.339 R/NA miata
Waterfall 1:15.941 ??????????????????????????
Alfonso Tan 1:15.135 S/NA s2k
Wilson 1:11.415 ?????????????????????????
Jay Allison 1:13.968 R/FI Atom
Lee 1:12.380 ??????????????????
Brandon Knot 1:12.380 R/FI Atom
Larson 1:10.680 R/FI Atom
Blake 1:11.266 ?????????????????????
Craig Jones 1:15.191 ?????????????????????
Lowe 1:12.670 ??????????????????
Shinn 1:13.991 ??????????????????????
Ray tai 1:13.972 R/NA Elise (better time has been done)
Geddes 1:15.285 ????????????????????
Jenkins 1:15.801 ????????????????????????
Tso 1:15.341 ?????????????????
Andrew pounder 1:16.923 S/NA s2k
John mann 1:17.261 ????????????????????
Bodhaine 1:16.957 ??????????????????
Mckissack 1:18.754 ????????????????
Wright 1:14.947 R/FI Atom
Brice allen 1:17.548 ??????????????????????
Russell 1:19.431 ??????????????????
Brian Pounder 1:22.076 S/NA s2k
There are a lot of hole in the data, and I know that people seem to get faster each time they come out, but it seems through the half-ish of the data that I could remember, that there is going to be a gap somewhere, but a tire only class is going to continue the same treend of having the same 3 or 4 people win their class.
If we did run tire classes, I would be rather suprised to see anything other that a Alfy, koon, junky podium. Where if we did a NA/R-FI/S class you would see RT win everytime he showed up with the next 6 or seven places being very close, prolly within 2-2.5 seconds.
Yes it IS POSSIBLE for an NA s2k, lotus, or miata to be running 1:12 or even as low as 1:10, but as far as I have seen and our lap attack has seen, that has not happened. Why try to make specific rules against something that is not all that likely to happen. I don't see any one who would fit into this class going out and buying A6's. They are too spendy, and wear way too fast. The biggest risk to this class becoming non-competitive would be Ray getting better tires; which i doubt he will. (I would not consider Nitto's much improvment) There is also the risk that s2k's will start getting r-comps are running low teens or possibly into the 12's but again, this hasn't happened yet, so I doubt that it will.
10-14-2010, 05:06 PM
#358
Registered User
Again, I would consider a stock powered evo/STI/GTI to fit in the NA/R-FI/S category regaurdless or tire choice.. It would be cruel to feed them to the "unlimited" class. They would just need to be on the honor system as far as mods go. If they become overly dominant then we can ship them off to get destroyed.
I would also suggest that hoosier automatically move you to the highest class, no matter what system we all agree on.
I would also suggest that hoosier automatically move you to the highest class, no matter what system we all agree on.
10-14-2010, 05:35 PM
#359
Originally Posted by WestSideBilly,Oct 14 2010, 04:54 PM
This is a good deal for guys like Junky, Alfy, Lig, RT, etc. The wrong wheel drive guys will probably disappear.
10-14-2010, 07:25 PM
#360
Registered User
Filling some holes:
Mark petty- 1:06.25 R/FI atom
Jared floyd- 1:09.634 R/FI s2k
kevin Dietz- 1:08.886 R/NA8cyl vette
John floyd- 1:14.509 R/NA s2k
Bob Bundy- 1:08.244 R/FI miata
Tanit koonpraset 1:15.580 S/FI rx7 ????????
Duncan 1:15.787 ??????????????????????????
Pirih 1:13.659 R/FI - Exige (Now running 1:11's on Hoosiers)
Adam kingsly 1:16.090 R/NA miata
Chric Clay 1:15.339 R/NA miata
Waterfall 1:15.941 S/NA S2k
Alfonso Tan 1:15.135 S/NA s2k
Wilson 1:11.415 R/NA 996 GT3
Jay Allison 1:13.968 R/FI Atom
Lee 1:12.380 R/NA 996 GT3, I Think
Brandon Knot 1:12.380 R/FI Atom
Larson 1:10.680 R/FI Atom
Blake 1:11.266 ?????????????????????
Craig Jones 1:15.191 ?????????????????????
Lowe 1:12.670 R/NA Race M3
Shinn 1:13.991 ?/NA Miata with S2000 Engine
Ray tai 1:13.972 R/NA Elise (better time has been done)
Geddes 1:15.285 ????????????????????
Jenkins 1:15.801 ????????????????????????
Tso 1:15.341 S/NA S2000
Andrew pounder 1:16.923 S/NA s2k
John mann 1:17.261 ????????????????????
Bodhaine 1:16.957 ??????????????????
Mckissack 1:18.754 ????????????????
Wright 1:14.947 R/FI Atom
Brice allen 1:17.548 ??????????????????????
Russell 1:19.431 ??????????????????
Brian Pounder 1:22.076 S/NA s2k
I'm not sure who drove which Atom but some/most of them were NA.
Mark petty- 1:06.25 R/FI atom
Jared floyd- 1:09.634 R/FI s2k
kevin Dietz- 1:08.886 R/NA8cyl vette
John floyd- 1:14.509 R/NA s2k
Bob Bundy- 1:08.244 R/FI miata
Tanit koonpraset 1:15.580 S/FI rx7 ????????
Duncan 1:15.787 ??????????????????????????
Pirih 1:13.659 R/FI - Exige (Now running 1:11's on Hoosiers)
Adam kingsly 1:16.090 R/NA miata
Chric Clay 1:15.339 R/NA miata
Waterfall 1:15.941 S/NA S2k
Alfonso Tan 1:15.135 S/NA s2k
Wilson 1:11.415 R/NA 996 GT3
Jay Allison 1:13.968 R/FI Atom
Lee 1:12.380 R/NA 996 GT3, I Think
Brandon Knot 1:12.380 R/FI Atom
Larson 1:10.680 R/FI Atom
Blake 1:11.266 ?????????????????????
Craig Jones 1:15.191 ?????????????????????
Lowe 1:12.670 R/NA Race M3
Shinn 1:13.991 ?/NA Miata with S2000 Engine
Ray tai 1:13.972 R/NA Elise (better time has been done)
Geddes 1:15.285 ????????????????????
Jenkins 1:15.801 ????????????????????????
Tso 1:15.341 S/NA S2000
Andrew pounder 1:16.923 S/NA s2k
John mann 1:17.261 ????????????????????
Bodhaine 1:16.957 ??????????????????
Mckissack 1:18.754 ????????????????
Wright 1:14.947 R/FI Atom
Brice allen 1:17.548 ??????????????????????
Russell 1:19.431 ??????????????????
Brian Pounder 1:22.076 S/NA s2k
I'm not sure who drove which Atom but some/most of them were NA.