TRACK: Lap Attack! Series @ PGP Motorsports Park
10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
#321
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by GEARHEAD,Oct 13 2010, 02:38 PM
Wouldn't you just fall into the Street tire category? I was assuming anything could run in street tire as the grip limit will equalize the power difference. Maybe I missed the details.
10-13-2010, 03:29 PM
#322
Registered User
A few of the existing lap attack / time attack / lap battle / Time Trials group use to dump everyone into one class, but then have performance modifiers that affected individual cars' points. I tried searching for some of those old registration sheets, but unfortunately, I'm coming up empty-handed at the moment.
Basically, the more performance doohickies your car had, the higher your handicap would be. For example, engine displacement was the basic handicap modifier.
<2.0 liters 0 points added (this is the performance base)
2.0 liters - 3.0 liters 1 point added (handicap increased)
3.0 liters - 4.0 liters 2 points added
Forced induction = base displacement x 2
Dual overhead cam = 1 point added
Variable valve timing = 1 point added
Weight reduction = 2 points added
Tires lower than UTQG 80 = 2 points added
UTQG between 80 & 179 = 1 point added
Aftermarket (non-OEM) aerodynamic additions = 1 point
Aftermarket suspension = 1 point
---------------------------------------------------
I also can't recall the math behind determining the handicap from the total, but to give an idea:
Add up the points from the table above. For example, an S2000 w/ F20C and turbo (size of turbo, PSI, efficiency don't matter) would start with a 2 point handicap (that's 1.98 liters x 2 = 3.92 liters). Since our motors have both dual cam and Variable valve timing, add on 2 more points. The car now has a 4 point handicap. The driver added a rear wing and an aftermarket bumper that has an effective wind splitter, so we add a 1 point handicap for aftermarket aero. Total handicap = 5 points.
So, we then use this handicap to apply a time penalty. Maybe 1/10th second for each point? So, this particular s2000 would have a 1/2 second penalty.
Of course, this is all theoretical, but I hope it provides some additional ideas.
Basically, the more performance doohickies your car had, the higher your handicap would be. For example, engine displacement was the basic handicap modifier.
<2.0 liters 0 points added (this is the performance base)
2.0 liters - 3.0 liters 1 point added (handicap increased)
3.0 liters - 4.0 liters 2 points added
Forced induction = base displacement x 2
Dual overhead cam = 1 point added
Variable valve timing = 1 point added
Weight reduction = 2 points added
Tires lower than UTQG 80 = 2 points added
UTQG between 80 & 179 = 1 point added
Aftermarket (non-OEM) aerodynamic additions = 1 point
Aftermarket suspension = 1 point
---------------------------------------------------
I also can't recall the math behind determining the handicap from the total, but to give an idea:
Add up the points from the table above. For example, an S2000 w/ F20C and turbo (size of turbo, PSI, efficiency don't matter) would start with a 2 point handicap (that's 1.98 liters x 2 = 3.92 liters). Since our motors have both dual cam and Variable valve timing, add on 2 more points. The car now has a 4 point handicap. The driver added a rear wing and an aftermarket bumper that has an effective wind splitter, so we add a 1 point handicap for aftermarket aero. Total handicap = 5 points.
So, we then use this handicap to apply a time penalty. Maybe 1/10th second for each point? So, this particular s2000 would have a 1/2 second penalty.
Of course, this is all theoretical, but I hope it provides some additional ideas.
10-13-2010, 03:31 PM
#323
Registered User
Thread Starter
That was already hashed two pages ago. Again, this is too casual an event series to get into teching vehicles for "points". Of my goals from the beginning was to keep it simple.
As I've spent more time in racing, it has become obvious that the more rules you have, the more expensive the sport becomes. It might sound counter-intuitive at first blush, but it is a nasty truth.
As I've spent more time in racing, it has become obvious that the more rules you have, the more expensive the sport becomes. It might sound counter-intuitive at first blush, but it is a nasty truth.
10-13-2010, 05:14 PM
#325
Registered User
Originally Posted by jerrypeterson,Oct 13 2010, 04:31 PM
That was already hashed two pages ago. Again, this is too casual an event series to get into teching vehicles for "points". Of my goals from the beginning was to keep it simple.
As I've spent more time in racing, it has become obvious that the more rules you have, the more expensive the sport becomes. It might sound counter-intuitive at first blush, but it is a nasty truth.
As I've spent more time in racing, it has become obvious that the more rules you have, the more expensive the sport becomes. It might sound counter-intuitive at first blush, but it is a nasty truth.
10-13-2010, 06:42 PM
#327
Registered User
Or perhapse we could do a seystem based on FI/NA and everyone is expected to run r-comp. Then if you do run street tires it knoks you down a class.
there could be three classes.
NA/street
NA/ r-comp----FI/street
FI/r-comp.
That would keep if fairly even, there would only be three classes, and those who have spent the money to go FI, but whine about having to get r-comps will still have a place where they con be competitive without being overly dominate. I mean a 360hp s2k on 295 wide tires is going to be way too fast compared to the other cars that would be running in a street tire only class.
If you can't beat 1:16 in your s2k it should be taken away from you. EVEN ALFY can do that in his stock s2k... Sorry alfy...
And if the FWD guys are unhappy, we could still have the same unrestricted FWD class.
there could be three classes.
NA/street
NA/ r-comp----FI/street
FI/r-comp.
That would keep if fairly even, there would only be three classes, and those who have spent the money to go FI, but whine about having to get r-comps will still have a place where they con be competitive without being overly dominate. I mean a 360hp s2k on 295 wide tires is going to be way too fast compared to the other cars that would be running in a street tire only class.
If you can't beat 1:16 in your s2k it should be taken away from you. EVEN ALFY can do that in his stock s2k... Sorry alfy...
And if the FWD guys are unhappy, we could still have the same unrestricted FWD class.
10-13-2010, 07:04 PM
#328
Z06 in the same class as a Miata... 
10-13-2010, 07:16 PM
#329
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^^ LoL, then take it away. I did 1:21 on the all weather tires I showed up on the day after I bought the '06 LBP. 1:19 on dead Star Specs and a shitty alignment in the '04 NFR, and 1:17 on good Star Specs and a more dialed alignment. Don't hate too hard man, S2K owners use their cars for more than trying to be the king on an overgrown go-kart track; for the driving experience and stuff...
As for FI/street mixing with NA/r-comp, I don't think I agree, even though that helps me. I still think street tires will be more of a limit on how quickly someone can get around the track. That also screws over STi's, Evo's, etc. even more. If there's a significant gap between say, a SC'd S2K and the next bunch of competitive street tire guys, then at that point it might be time to reconsider. Until that's proven, I'd say not to add that in.
As for FI/street mixing with NA/r-comp, I don't think I agree, even though that helps me. I still think street tires will be more of a limit on how quickly someone can get around the track. That also screws over STi's, Evo's, etc. even more. If there's a significant gap between say, a SC'd S2K and the next bunch of competitive street tire guys, then at that point it might be time to reconsider. Until that's proven, I'd say not to add that in.
10-13-2010, 07:37 PM
#330
I'm with Alfy on this one. FI Street tires vs R comp NA isn't a competitive class until one of us shows that it can be. Tire grip is going to be what leads the pace. You can also over power a small track and slow down vs a guy with less poop that can keep it stuck and controlled. I like drifting but its not the fast way around a track.