Route 26 Drive Concerns
06-11-2003, 06:23 AM
#1
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Route 26 Drive Concerns
Brad and I were doing a post-mortem on the Route 26 drive this past weekend and would like to open a dialog on some concerns we have. Specifically two things. One, is excessive speed. I didn't witness this, but I heard someone passed 4 cars at 120MPH. That is just plain unacceptable. Only bad things can come from that. If you want to go 120MPH, that is great, but do it on a track. Two, some people were pushing the car to and beyond its limits. Not necessarily excessive speed per se, but excessive for the environment (i.e. sharp turns). We all joked about April's little off-road adventure, and thankfully all turned out well, but that could have been a lot worse. I don't know about anyone else, but I was scared to death waiting in Woodsfield to find out why we were missing about 6 cars.
I had as much fun as the next person ripping through turns, but I think it's time to slow down. My recommendations are twofold:
1) If we have a group who wants to test the limits of their car, let's get some track days on our schedule.
2) Any future Route 26 drives organized by yours truly will be run significantly slower. Keep in mind the speed limit is 55 on most of that road and that is more than enough speed to still have fun on those twisties.
Brad and I would like to hear from everyone, so please weigh in.
I had as much fun as the next person ripping through turns, but I think it's time to slow down. My recommendations are twofold:
1) If we have a group who wants to test the limits of their car, let's get some track days on our schedule.
2) Any future Route 26 drives organized by yours truly will be run significantly slower. Keep in mind the speed limit is 55 on most of that road and that is more than enough speed to still have fun on those twisties.
Brad and I would like to hear from everyone, so please weigh in.
06-11-2003, 07:10 AM
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Just to clarify, the 120mph and the passing of four cars in one corner were seperate incidents. Both of these in my mind crossed the line from agressive to reckless.
Obviously there was also at least one of us pushing too close to the limit of adhesion around corners. Otherwise there would not have been a spin unless there was a tire or suspension failure, etc... Obviously that was not the case since the car was driven normally after the incident. I don't mean to pick on you April, but I hope you've come to the realization that you could have killed yourself, or worse yet, somebody else. I know because I went through the same thing about 10 years ago. I wasn't as lucky as you, I totalled a car and gave myself a concussion. I still feel very lucky however. I realized that no rush in the world was worth taking the life of a child who might happen to be riding their bike in the wrong place at the wrong time.
For the rest of you that haven't experienced what April and I have, I know it's very hard to learn from somebody else's mistake. You'll tell yourselves that you're a better driver, that it will never happen to you, etc... If you're driving close to and over the limit, there are too many things that can go wrong that you have no control over. On a public road the possible problems and disastrous consequences are multiplied. Just think about what you could do to an innocent person. That's what really got to me.
So, unless we get things under control I won't be participating in any more drives such as this. Even when not leading, I feel too much responsibility just being a part of a drive. If somebody got hurt because one of us was doing something reckless, it would ruin this type of driving for me forever. I don't want that to happen.
Brad
Obviously there was also at least one of us pushing too close to the limit of adhesion around corners. Otherwise there would not have been a spin unless there was a tire or suspension failure, etc... Obviously that was not the case since the car was driven normally after the incident. I don't mean to pick on you April, but I hope you've come to the realization that you could have killed yourself, or worse yet, somebody else. I know because I went through the same thing about 10 years ago. I wasn't as lucky as you, I totalled a car and gave myself a concussion. I still feel very lucky however. I realized that no rush in the world was worth taking the life of a child who might happen to be riding their bike in the wrong place at the wrong time.
For the rest of you that haven't experienced what April and I have, I know it's very hard to learn from somebody else's mistake. You'll tell yourselves that you're a better driver, that it will never happen to you, etc... If you're driving close to and over the limit, there are too many things that can go wrong that you have no control over. On a public road the possible problems and disastrous consequences are multiplied. Just think about what you could do to an innocent person. That's what really got to me.
So, unless we get things under control I won't be participating in any more drives such as this. Even when not leading, I feel too much responsibility just being a part of a drive. If somebody got hurt because one of us was doing something reckless, it would ruin this type of driving for me forever. I don't want that to happen.
Brad
06-11-2003, 08:07 AM
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WWHHOOAAA.......Wait a minute here. First off, I enjoyed my time and take full responsiblity for what happened to ME. As you could all tell from my attitude. I also enjoyed every single one of you and still do....even after I write what I do.
Carmen, ummm you stated " I think it is time to slow down" If I remember correctly I lost you quite a few times on the Drive on Sunday, and never saw you on Saturday. I may have caught up to you a few times on Sunday, but you kept quite the distance ahead, and you were going well over 55mph, because I know I was. 2nd, I did not push my car to the limits. I have had the thing for 2 years. I went on a drive over a month ago, alot more challenging than this and had "0" incident and it was raining!!! I lost a lot of tread on that drive. As stated, my tires were low and I probably should have taken it a little more easier than I did because of this fact, again, Im admitting, but I do know how to handle my car, regardless of what happened. Shit happens to the best of us.
So I was not pushing it to the limit of adhesion as someone has stated. I could have gone faster and quicker, as I have done before with no problem. Did I NO, but probably should have slowed down a little more, but when EVERYONE else is ahead of you and you are in need of catching up to them....what does that say about the people in the lead? Its funny how people are now stating these "issues" but had no problem in being a part of them at the time.
Yes, I could have killed myself. I could also get shot at the gas station on the way to work.
I hope this does not end up in a pissing contest, but afraid it will. You asked for my opinion and there it is. Im not 5 years old I and dont need a lecture. I bet you dont think I am a sweetheart now do you? Sorry, but I get a little defensive when information is not as accurate as it needs to be. Especially when the finger is pointed at me.
Carmen, ummm you stated " I think it is time to slow down" If I remember correctly I lost you quite a few times on the Drive on Sunday, and never saw you on Saturday. I may have caught up to you a few times on Sunday, but you kept quite the distance ahead, and you were going well over 55mph, because I know I was. 2nd, I did not push my car to the limits. I have had the thing for 2 years. I went on a drive over a month ago, alot more challenging than this and had "0" incident and it was raining!!! I lost a lot of tread on that drive. As stated, my tires were low and I probably should have taken it a little more easier than I did because of this fact, again, Im admitting, but I do know how to handle my car, regardless of what happened. Shit happens to the best of us.
So I was not pushing it to the limit of adhesion as someone has stated. I could have gone faster and quicker, as I have done before with no problem. Did I NO, but probably should have slowed down a little more, but when EVERYONE else is ahead of you and you are in need of catching up to them....what does that say about the people in the lead? Its funny how people are now stating these "issues" but had no problem in being a part of them at the time.
Yes, I could have killed myself. I could also get shot at the gas station on the way to work.
I hope this does not end up in a pissing contest, but afraid it will. You asked for my opinion and there it is. Im not 5 years old I and dont need a lecture. I bet you dont think I am a sweetheart now do you? Sorry, but I get a little defensive when information is not as accurate as it needs to be. Especially when the finger is pointed at me.
06-11-2003, 08:15 AM
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First off, thank you both for posting your concerns. If we are to remain a group, and I think we have a pretty good group of people here, we need to be able to discuss these things politely and maturely. We're off to a good start with the first two posts.
I'll add that I was near the back of moderate most of the day Saturday, so I also can't say I saw the two things you mentioned, but they don't exactly sound like something to brag about. I can't say I have behaved perfectly on all of our outings, but I will say that watching the incident this past weekend unfold in my rearview mirror was enough to give me pause for thought. I had never actually witnessed an accident happen before, not even a minor fender bender in the parking lot type of thing. I've driven by some nasty wrecks shortly after they took place, but seeing it happen and thinking, "Hey, that *easily* could have been me and/or that *easily* could have been so much worse," really put things in perspective.
In fact, later in the afternoon, I had relaxed sufficiently to the point that I waved a number of folks by. The nice thing was, I still had loads of fun by myself without feeling like I needed to keep up with the car in front of me. And I can look back on the afternoon as more enjoyable than the morning (i.e. no need to stop and worry about the safety of my fellow enthusiasts, etc).
I am totally with all of you on the public road vs. track issue. Just yesterday, I took my new girlfriend for a ride (first chance she had to ride in the S2000
) and on a fairly well populated road we rounded a corner to find a deer standing in the middle of the road a few dozen yards ahead of us. Now, we were just cruising along enjoying the sun, but imagine if that had been on our Route 26 drive?
- Joe
I'll add that I was near the back of moderate most of the day Saturday, so I also can't say I saw the two things you mentioned, but they don't exactly sound like something to brag about. I can't say I have behaved perfectly on all of our outings, but I will say that watching the incident this past weekend unfold in my rearview mirror was enough to give me pause for thought. I had never actually witnessed an accident happen before, not even a minor fender bender in the parking lot type of thing. I've driven by some nasty wrecks shortly after they took place, but seeing it happen and thinking, "Hey, that *easily* could have been me and/or that *easily* could have been so much worse," really put things in perspective.
In fact, later in the afternoon, I had relaxed sufficiently to the point that I waved a number of folks by. The nice thing was, I still had loads of fun by myself without feeling like I needed to keep up with the car in front of me. And I can look back on the afternoon as more enjoyable than the morning (i.e. no need to stop and worry about the safety of my fellow enthusiasts, etc).
I am totally with all of you on the public road vs. track issue. Just yesterday, I took my new girlfriend for a ride (first chance she had to ride in the S2000
) and on a fairly well populated road we rounded a corner to find a deer standing in the middle of the road a few dozen yards ahead of us. Now, we were just cruising along enjoying the sun, but imagine if that had been on our Route 26 drive?- Joe
06-11-2003, 08:21 AM
#5
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Whoooaaaa is correct. Nobody is pointing a finger at you April. Nor are we questioning your driving skills. You did great and you are welcome to join us anytime. I also agree that I am as guilty as anyone. I was pushing my car pretty hard on that drive. Your spin was really a small part of my concerns regarding our speeds and such. It really only served as an eye-opener. Again, I'm not criticizing your driving skills. But, how do you think I would feel if I organized the event, and something terrible happened to you or anyone else on my "watch"?
Lastly, this is not a lecture or pissing contest or a criticism of anyone. Brad and I are merely looking for input on this. I personally feel, and I think I can speak for Brad on this, that we were just pushing the envelope a little too far for a country road. And if anything bad happened to anyone, I can tell you that not only would I never take these drives again, I would likely sell my S2K because I would never be able to enjoy driving it again. For me the best part of these drives is making new friends. No fingers are being pointed.
Lastly, this is not a lecture or pissing contest or a criticism of anyone. Brad and I are merely looking for input on this. I personally feel, and I think I can speak for Brad on this, that we were just pushing the envelope a little too far for a country road. And if anything bad happened to anyone, I can tell you that not only would I never take these drives again, I would likely sell my S2K because I would never be able to enjoy driving it again. For me the best part of these drives is making new friends. No fingers are being pointed.
06-11-2003, 09:06 AM
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Hardtopguy,
I agree with everything you said except for the comment about "Are accidents going to happen - YES". This implies to me that it is to be expected that people will lose control and possibly wreck. I'm certainly not going to be participating if that is considered acceptable.
April,
I'm sorry I upset you. None of us really know what happened except for you. Maybe it was a fluke that will never happen again in a million years.
We'll turn this around and point the finger at me. When I had my accident, I didn't know what happened. I still don't because I have no memory of it. I could have kidded myself and said the car had a failure, etc... but instead I realized that at that particular corner I must have been too close to the limit. I had driven the same car on the same road many times before. The conditions were perfect. Something must have happened, gravel in the road, an animal jumped out, a tire went off the berm, etc... Regardless of what actually happened I must have been going so fast that the balance of the car was upset and off I went. The only thing that will fix this is to not be so close to the limit in the first place. Then when something unexpected happens you'll be able to react safely.
I also know the rationalization surrounding ( I could die crossing the street.) My question is, would you be able to deal with it if you killed a child because you were going sideways across the street? I wouldn't be able to, and that is what finally convinced me to change. For me, simply telling the mother that "shit happens" wouldn't cut it.
I don't think you're a bad person or a bad driver, but I don't want to participate in drives with anybody that thinks losing control is just one of those things that will happen sometimes.
I agree with everything you said except for the comment about "Are accidents going to happen - YES". This implies to me that it is to be expected that people will lose control and possibly wreck. I'm certainly not going to be participating if that is considered acceptable.
April,
I'm sorry I upset you. None of us really know what happened except for you. Maybe it was a fluke that will never happen again in a million years.
We'll turn this around and point the finger at me. When I had my accident, I didn't know what happened. I still don't because I have no memory of it. I could have kidded myself and said the car had a failure, etc... but instead I realized that at that particular corner I must have been too close to the limit. I had driven the same car on the same road many times before. The conditions were perfect. Something must have happened, gravel in the road, an animal jumped out, a tire went off the berm, etc... Regardless of what actually happened I must have been going so fast that the balance of the car was upset and off I went. The only thing that will fix this is to not be so close to the limit in the first place. Then when something unexpected happens you'll be able to react safely.
I also know the rationalization surrounding ( I could die crossing the street.) My question is, would you be able to deal with it if you killed a child because you were going sideways across the street? I wouldn't be able to, and that is what finally convinced me to change. For me, simply telling the mother that "shit happens" wouldn't cut it.
I don't think you're a bad person or a bad driver, but I don't want to participate in drives with anybody that thinks losing control is just one of those things that will happen sometimes.
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06-11-2003, 09:28 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hardtopguy
[B]I said accidents are going to happen because you have 20 or so cars going fast on a tight twisty road. I'm not a math professor but I think the probabilty of an accident happening is high.
[B]I said accidents are going to happen because you have 20 or so cars going fast on a tight twisty road. I'm not a math professor but I think the probabilty of an accident happening is high.
06-11-2003, 09:44 AM
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My back end was not skipping out, either. I don't have the experience or the skill to think I could control a vehicle that is constantly right on the verge of oversteer through each and every corner.
I agree with Brad. If you have that level of confidence that you do push it to 10/10ths constantly, it's going to bite you in the ass sooner or later. Much better to get "bit in the ass" on the track with runoff areas, a medical crew on standby, while wearing a helmet, etc.
I agree with Brad. If you have that level of confidence that you do push it to 10/10ths constantly, it's going to bite you in the ass sooner or later. Much better to get "bit in the ass" on the track with runoff areas, a medical crew on standby, while wearing a helmet, etc.