They're Marching Against God - Your .02
07-19-2002, 04:37 PM
#251
Registered User
Originally posted by chroot
Oh REALLY?
Oh REALLY?
Oh REALLY?
Let me guess -- you've been reading novels by Hawking again, haven't you?
- Warren
Oh REALLY?
Oh REALLY?
Oh REALLY?
Let me guess -- you've been reading novels by Hawking again, haven't you?
- Warren
yes
and no
07-19-2002, 04:42 PM
#253
Registered User
you are right, i don't have a degree in physics. My degree is in computer engineering.
When I said the Big Bang has changed 1000's of times I am talking about the details not the overall theory.
As far as everything coming from nothing...that is what I've read (not from hawkings) from various string theorists, but I assume you probably think all that is junk too right?
Well, why don't you enlighten us about what was right before the universe existed. Obviously there was not time or matter until there was time and matter...so what was before? Since all the evidence points towards an every expanding universe..what came before?
article like this are BS right?
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/cosm/beyondbb.html
"Was there light? Since the majority of the photons were probably not created in large numbers until at least the beginning of the Inflationary Epoc, 10 seconds after the Big Bang, it is not unthinkable that during its earliest moments, the universe was born out of darkness rather than in a blinding flash of light. All that existed in this darkness before the advent of light, was an empty space out of which our 10-dimensional spacetime would later emerge. Of course, under these conditions it is unclear just how we should continue to think about time itself.
In terms of the theories available today, it may well be that the particular dimension we call Time had a definite zero point so that we can not even speak logically about what happened before time existed. The concept of 'before' is based on the presumption of time ordering. A traveler standing on the north pole can never move to a position on the earth that is 1 mile north of north! Nevertheless, out of ingrained habit, we speak of the time before the genesis of the universe when time didn't exist and ask, "What happened before the Big Bang?". The list of physicists investigating this 'state' has grown enormously over the last 15 years. The number of physicists, worldwide, that publish research on this topic is only slightly more than 200 out of a world population of 5 billion!
"
so pretty much there was a zero point, then a non-zero point..i don't think it gets any clearer, but maybe you could add something to this instead of just ripping on people.
When I said the Big Bang has changed 1000's of times I am talking about the details not the overall theory.
As far as everything coming from nothing...that is what I've read (not from hawkings) from various string theorists, but I assume you probably think all that is junk too right?
Well, why don't you enlighten us about what was right before the universe existed. Obviously there was not time or matter until there was time and matter...so what was before? Since all the evidence points towards an every expanding universe..what came before?
article like this are BS right?
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/cosm/beyondbb.html
"Was there light? Since the majority of the photons were probably not created in large numbers until at least the beginning of the Inflationary Epoc, 10 seconds after the Big Bang, it is not unthinkable that during its earliest moments, the universe was born out of darkness rather than in a blinding flash of light. All that existed in this darkness before the advent of light, was an empty space out of which our 10-dimensional spacetime would later emerge. Of course, under these conditions it is unclear just how we should continue to think about time itself.
In terms of the theories available today, it may well be that the particular dimension we call Time had a definite zero point so that we can not even speak logically about what happened before time existed. The concept of 'before' is based on the presumption of time ordering. A traveler standing on the north pole can never move to a position on the earth that is 1 mile north of north! Nevertheless, out of ingrained habit, we speak of the time before the genesis of the universe when time didn't exist and ask, "What happened before the Big Bang?". The list of physicists investigating this 'state' has grown enormously over the last 15 years. The number of physicists, worldwide, that publish research on this topic is only slightly more than 200 out of a world population of 5 billion!
"
so pretty much there was a zero point, then a non-zero point..i don't think it gets any clearer, but maybe you could add something to this instead of just ripping on people.
07-19-2002, 05:11 PM
#254
[QUOTE]Originally posted by s2kpdx01
[B]
*yawn* jeez, could you be a little more condescending.
[B]
*yawn* jeez, could you be a little more condescending.
07-19-2002, 05:18 PM
#255
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cedric Tomkinson
[B]Seriously though s2kpdx01, you didn't really choose the best examples in your original post? The coelacanth, and the round earth are mans own 'discoveries'. Hey.... we've stood on the moon and looked back at the Earth... we *know* it's a ball... we know we're not gonna drop off the edge now if we go too far.
We're a far more enlightened and sophisticated people these days don't you think.? Do you not think it inevitable that as our knowledge of the universe and the understanding of creation loses much of it's mystery, we are bound to question the concept of some all powerful being creating the whole thing in 6 days and resting on the seventh. Whilst opinions may vary I think
[B]Seriously though s2kpdx01, you didn't really choose the best examples in your original post? The coelacanth, and the round earth are mans own 'discoveries'. Hey.... we've stood on the moon and looked back at the Earth... we *know* it's a ball... we know we're not gonna drop off the edge now if we go too far.
We're a far more enlightened and sophisticated people these days don't you think.? Do you not think it inevitable that as our knowledge of the universe and the understanding of creation loses much of it's mystery, we are bound to question the concept of some all powerful being creating the whole thing in 6 days and resting on the seventh. Whilst opinions may vary I think
07-19-2002, 05:23 PM
#256
Registered User
LOL
I always end up on the wrong end of the time difference with you guys here so I'll be away to muh bed!
Just a couple of points though s2kpdx01 (Damn that's some handle)
When did I ever say we were better or somehow more worthy than those who've gone before us??? You get nowhere by mis-quoting people. What I did say was that we were far more sophisticated and enlightened. Come on, that's self-evident!..., standards of education, the technology we take for granted now, are light years away
from anything people could have aspired to or understood when they they were being sold the concept of a better life in the hereafter.
You keep implying that those who take the scientific explanation of the 'Creation' "Know everything" or "Think they know everything" Nothing could be further from the truth. It's that very quest for knowledge and understanding that drives us forward, improving our understanding little by little, that will one day free us from the yolk of pagan superstitions altogether.
We are leaves ! We wither and fall. That's not to suggest I know everything, it's simply to accept the evidence of my own eyes all around me. When we lie in bed at night and sometimes get that flutter of panic in the chest as we think about our own mortality and the time we have left it's all to easy to grasp at something else.
I always end up on the wrong end of the time difference with you guys here so I'll be away to muh bed!
Just a couple of points though s2kpdx01 (Damn that's some handle)
When did I ever say we were better or somehow more worthy than those who've gone before us??? You get nowhere by mis-quoting people. What I did say was that we were far more sophisticated and enlightened. Come on, that's self-evident!..., standards of education, the technology we take for granted now, are light years away
from anything people could have aspired to or understood when they they were being sold the concept of a better life in the hereafter.You keep implying that those who take the scientific explanation of the 'Creation' "Know everything" or "Think they know everything" Nothing could be further from the truth. It's that very quest for knowledge and understanding that drives us forward, improving our understanding little by little, that will one day free us from the yolk of pagan superstitions altogether.
We are leaves ! We wither and fall.
That's not to suggest I know everything, it's simply to accept the evidence of my own eyes all around me. When we lie in bed at night and sometimes get that flutter of panic in the chest as we think about our own mortality and the time we have left it's all to easy to grasp at something else.
07-19-2002, 05:25 PM
#257
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s2kpdx01,
I don't really have time to explain the whole of physics to you. There are people, however, who do. They work in places called 'universities.' It takes some time to learn all of it, though.
- Warren
I don't really have time to explain the whole of physics to you. There are people, however, who do. They work in places called 'universities.' It takes some time to learn all of it, though.
- Warren
07-19-2002, 05:45 PM
#259
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Listen,
If it's not published in Phys. Review Letters, it's rubbish. Hell, half the stuff published in Phys. Review Letters is rubbish. You are not going to learn anything from people's personal websites where they wax philosophic about physics. You cannot learn physics from some poorly-organized paragraphs about ten-dimensional space, wormholes, hyperspace, or any other such non-sense.
There's a critical-mass today of armchair scientists, each trying to purport his malformed mental hemmorhages as physical theory -- I'll refer you to crank.net. It is truly unfortunate that physics is one of the few pure sciences vulnerable to the attack of untrained amateurs -- largely because there are many more open-ended, unanswered questions in physics than in any other pure science.
YES - the link you posted is rubbish. I read the first two pages, and there so many half-truths, half-conclusions, and just outright misunderstood, half-digested meanderings on that one page alone that the only proper response is to click the little 'x' at the top-right.
If you don't have the time or inclination to get a real education in a given field, please do us all a favor and don't talk about it. I have a particular sore spot with amateur physicists, namely because I seem to spend half my goddamn waking life these days demonstrating to people how wrong they are. Everyone's a poet, everyone's a musician, and everyone's a physicist. Good damn luck.
- Warren
If it's not published in Phys. Review Letters, it's rubbish. Hell, half the stuff published in Phys. Review Letters is rubbish. You are not going to learn anything from people's personal websites where they wax philosophic about physics. You cannot learn physics from some poorly-organized paragraphs about ten-dimensional space, wormholes, hyperspace, or any other such non-sense.
There's a critical-mass today of armchair scientists, each trying to purport his malformed mental hemmorhages as physical theory -- I'll refer you to crank.net. It is truly unfortunate that physics is one of the few pure sciences vulnerable to the attack of untrained amateurs -- largely because there are many more open-ended, unanswered questions in physics than in any other pure science.
YES - the link you posted is rubbish. I read the first two pages, and there so many half-truths, half-conclusions, and just outright misunderstood, half-digested meanderings on that one page alone that the only proper response is to click the little 'x' at the top-right.
If you don't have the time or inclination to get a real education in a given field, please do us all a favor and don't talk about it. I have a particular sore spot with amateur physicists, namely because I seem to spend half my goddamn waking life these days demonstrating to people how wrong they are. Everyone's a poet, everyone's a musician, and everyone's a physicist. Good damn luck.
- Warren