magician

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chroot
[B]Well, I guess that means "Euclid's Fifth Postulate" is really "Euclid's Fifth Lemma" or "Euclid's Fifth Theorem."

chroot

How is my faith better than yours? My faith can be disproved.

- Warren

chroot

But wait --- you can't call it an axiom, because that's a synonym for postulate, and so doesn't change anything. We both agreed that it ISN'T a postulate or axiom... it's one of those bifurcations into two or more completely self-consistent models.

So you can't call it "Euclid's Fifth Axiom" unless you want Lobachevsky, Bolyai, Gauss, Riemann, and a whole herd of other dead mathematicians to come beat you up.

- Warren

magician

Warren, that's a very interesting statement. (I'm being serious here, not sarcastic.) I agree that the items in which you place your faith--scientific conclusions--can be disproved, but that's a very different statement than the one you made. I'm not saying your statement is wrong, but I seriously think it provokes--indeed, demands--a lot of thought.

magician

I always thought that dead mathematicians came in flocks, not herds.

Now I'm really confused!

I'm going to have to go riding this afternoon and clear my brain.

Both neurons!

ltweintz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by magician
[B]

A flawless diamond cannot develop a flaw?

chroot

Apparently I'm confused too -- how can my statement be different from itself?

The conclusion of "my faith is better because it may be disproved" is actually the end result of literally hundreds of theological debates I've had with many of my so-inclined friends. It's now usually the bomb I drop on theological conversations, like this one, that have progressed to a mature state.

It's the most basic, critical distinction between the zealot and the free-thinker. We all have faith in something, scientist and clergy alike -- it's unavoidably human.

The fundamental difference between my thoughts and the thoughts of those in service to a deity is that my thoughts are free.

- Warren

magician

I didn't suggest that your statement was different from itself.

There's a difference between one's faith and the objects of that faith--there is a difference between the statement 1 + 1 = 3 and your belief in that statement. Similarly, there is a difference between disproving 1 + 1 = 3 and disproving your belief in that statement. The former is easy--both to do and to understand. The latter is difficult to understand, I believe; I therefore cannot say whether it is easy, difficult, or even impossible to disprove.

As I said, you made a very interesting statement. It may not have been the one you intended to make, in the sense that it may not have conveyed the meaning you intended, but as written it is very interesting.

Darn it, Warren, I'm trying to pay you a complement here! Accept it and have a beer. (or Pepsi, or whatever.)

chroot

I think it's the one I meant to make. And maybe you intend to pay me a compliment later? Just kidding.

And JonBoy, since you did soooo well in chasing my bait soooo precisely to that trap I laid out for you about scientific faith, I'll go ahead and post the "second half" of the "Bible errors" questions just so you don't strain yourself too hard looking up the Scripture.

I tricked you there, too. Some of those that I listed are not errors, but misinterpretations. The explanations of some others are tenuous at best, and require a leap of faith (tongue in cheek) to accept. A few... honestly, and various theologians agree... really are errors. You can make of that situation what you would like.

I'd like for you to keep in mind that I am not against religion -- I am against captive thought. Those that come to religion freely, accept it for what it is and is not, and keep using their heads, I support whole-heartedly.

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No matter how you read it, it's incontrovertible that God promised Tyre would be 'erased from the map' and that never happened.
*Alexander the Great razed the city, executed the men, and sold the women and children into slavery. This seems like being wiped from the map, even if they did later rebuild the city.

(Judas still explodes in a field AND hangs himself;
*Only twice does the term "hanged" appear in the Bible. In the first, 2 Sam 17:23, it explicitly states that the person "hanged himself; and died...." Matthew's account does not go on to state that he died. Hanging is not
always a reliable method of suicide, especially when attaching the rope to a tree branch. "Falling on your sword" as the ancient Romans did is similar to the method described in Acts, and has a far greater chance of success. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he failed in his first attempt.

Jesus' lineage is still different between Matthew and Luke;
*Only one of the lineages claims be physically his. He would've been considered an adopted son of Joseph, and thus under Jewish law able to lay claim to Joseph's lineage as well as Mary's.

Different people show up at his tomb to find different scenarios, depending on the book you're reading;
*The Bible doesn't say that all these occur at the same time, either.

and Jesus appears in four different places after his 'resurrection,' depnding on the book you're reading.)
*He actually appears in ten different places. These occur over time. If I were to say that I'm taking Physics, US Gov't, English, and Calculus, do I prove myself wrong?

Man was created before the animals Genesis 2:18-19
But: Man was created after the animals Genesis 1:25-27
*Man was created spiritually before the animals and physically after them. Look at the language more closely.

God is satisfied with his works; it is good. Genesis 1:31
Then: God is dissatisfied with his works, decides to destroy it all. Genesis 6:6
*Man hadn't sinned yet in Genesis 1:31. In Gen 6:6, all men have become sinful except Noah and his family.

God punishes his chosen people (Israel) repeatedly for their wickedness Numbers 11:1, 11:33, 16:35, 16:44-49, 21:5
Yet: God has not seen wickedness in Israel Numbers 23:21
*At the time of Num 23:21, the wickedness of the previous chapters is in the past. In Num 23:21, Balaam is reciting God's message to him, and is saying that God is delivering a blessing because Israel is not currently wicked.

Robbery is forbidden by God Exodus 20:15; Leviticus 19:13
And...Robbery is commanded by God Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36
*The easiest response is to once again point out that God forbids stealing after earlier "commanding" it. However, a better response is to point out that in Exodus 3:21-22,35-36, God is commanding the Hebrews to recover that which was stolen from them by the Egyptians.

Making of graven images is forbidden Exodus 20:4
Making of graven images is commanded Exodus 25:18,20
*The Bible actually refers to idols in these passages, with special reference to graven images as idols. The Ten Commandments in Ex. 20:4 ban making idols for oneself. This was in response to the practice at the time of having personal gods other than YHWH. The Ark of the Covenant described in Ex. 25:18-20 is not for the Israelites to worship, but for the glorification of God. Thus, it is not an idol, and is not forbidden by the Ten Commandments.

God forbids Moses from counting the Levites in the Israeli census Numbers 1:48
God commands Moses to count the Levites in the Israeli census Numbers 3:15
*God forbids counting the Levites when Moses is taking a census for the purposes of raising an army. Later, God commands Moses to count the Levites, since they are to belong to God alone, and not to the Hebrew administration. Once again, God commanding one thing at one time and commanding something
else later is not an inaccuracy. If I say at 10AM that I'm not hungry, and at noon that I am hungry, I haven't refuted myself.

Good works are to be seen of men Matthew 5:16
Good works are NOT to be seen Matthew 6:1
*In the first passage, Christ is commanding that good works be done, and that it is to be hoped that people see and follow their example so that they might also do good. In the second passage, Christ is saying to not do good deeds in order to make other think more highly of you, as the Pharisees do. The difference is between doing good works to inspire others and doing good works to make others admire you.

No one can ever see God, lest they die Exodus 33:20, 34:20
Moses speaks face-to-face with God regularly Exodus 33:11
*Before anything else, I'd like to point out that Ex. 34:20 has nothing to do with this, but is concerned with rules of sacrifice. In Ex. 33:11, it is said that God spoke with Moses "face to face, just as a man speaks to his
friend." In Ex. 33:20, Moses asks God to reveal his face to him. If Moses had already seen God's face, why would he ask him to show it to him? The answer is that the first passage is idiomatic, like saying that I spoke to a female friend in a "man to man" manner. Furthermore, the first passage doesn't say that Moses actually saw God's face, just that he communicated with it. This means that he spoke and heard, rather than saw a pillar of fire or a plague of locusts.

Jesus states that if he ever witnesses himself, then his witness will be a false one John 5:31
Jesus bears witness of himself John 8:18
*Jesus says that if he alone witnesses himself, his testimony will be false. However, he later states that both he and God the Father through the Old Testament witness Christ. He points out that under Jewish law, the testimony of two men is to be considered true. As he has two witnesses, he is true.

It was unlawful for the Jews to put Jesus to death John 18:31
It was lawful for the Jews to put Jesus to death John 19:7
*Not quite. The Jews said that a man who claimed to be God should be put to death, but that they did not actually have a law to do so. Many people believe that adulterers should be considered criminals. However, American law (not counting the military) does not consider it a criminal offense, (though you can be sued for it). Thus, the Jews needed the Romans, who actually had capital punishment, to execute Jesus for them.

Risen Jesus says 'Touch Me' John 20:27
Risen Jesus says 'Do Not Touch Me' John 20:17
*In John 20:17, Jesus tells Mary to stop clinging to him and go tell the disciples that Christ is risen. In John 20:27, Jesus tells the doubting disciples to touch him. The difference is that in verse 17, he wants the news of his resurrection to be spread, and Mary cannot start this while she's still clinging to him. In verse 27, Jesus is proving to the disciples that he is not just a hallucination, but a physical fact.

Jesus promises that he will build his church upon Peter and give him the keys to Heaven, whatever Peter decrees will be true in Heaven and on Earth Matthew 16:18-19
Jesus calls Peter "Satan", describes him as offensive, accuses him of selfish, evil materialism, and demands that Peter get lost Matthew 16:23
*The first passage is in the future tense. In the second, Jesus is rebuking Peter for his doubts. These do not contradict each other. At boot camps, the drill sergeants tell the recruits that they will be made into soldiers, but that they are not soldiers yet. Do they contradict themselves?

Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell Matthew 5:22
Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool Matthew 7:26
*Not quite. In the second passage, Jesus says that those who do not believe are like fools. If you are like something, you are not actually such. I am not like a student, I am a student. In any case, the purpose of the second passage isn't to define who is and who is not a fool, but to state the consequences of unbelief (which is like building a house on sand).

Mathematical Blunders
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(1) I Chronicles 3:22 --> 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6
(2) 1 Chronicles 25:3 --> 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6
*1 Chron. 25:3 says "Of Jeduthun, the sons of Jeduthun: [1]Gedaliah,
[2]Zeri, [3]Jeshaiah, [4]Shimei, [5]Hashabiah, [6], six...." QED.
(3) Joshua 15:33-36 --> 15 cities = 16 cities
(4) 1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chronicles 4:2 --> 2 * pi * 5 cubits = 30 cubits
*In ancient times, pi was reckoned as 3.0. 2*3*6=30 cubits.
(5) 1 Chronicles 3:19-20 --> 7 males + 1 female = 5 persons
*1 Chron 3:19-20 says "19...And the sons of Zerubbabel were Meshullam and Hananiah, and Shelomith was their sister; 20 and Hashubah, Ohel, Berechiah, Hasadiah, and Jushab-hesed, five." The five clearly refers to the sons in verse 20, not to the entire family.
(6) Joshua 15:21-32 --> 29 cities = 36 cities
(7) 2 Chronicles 21:20, 22:1,2 --> Son is 2 years older than father!
*Jehoram died at the age of forty, having ascended to the throne at age 32 and dying eight years later. His son Ahaziah became king at the age of 22, meaning that he would've been born when his father was 18, which is reasonable.
(8) Ezra 1:9-11 --> 1000 + 29 + 30 + 410 + 1000 = 5400
*The Apocryphal (which doesn't mean wrong, but simply not canon) book 1 Esdras lists the items slightly differently, and comes up with 5469 items. As was common practice at the time, the largest round number (5400) is given as the total.
(9) Joshua 19:2-6 --> 13 cities = 14 cities
(10) Ezra 2:3,64; Neh. 7:8,66 --> 42,360 = 29,818 = 31,089
The list in Nehemiah is later than that in Ezra, and is updated. Both passages list only the "sons" and "men of" in the figures of 29,818 and 31,089, while they list "the whole assembly," presumably including women, as
42,360.
(11) Numbers 3:17,22 --> 22,000 = 22,300
*Neither figure appears in Num. 3:17-22. That passage lists the Levites as numbering 7,500.

Here are a couple more straight-forward errors: 1-Insects in fact have six legs and not four (Leviticus 11:20)
*"Walking on all fours" is idiomatic, and differentiates between the winged insects mentioned and others such as ants or termites.
2-Bats are not birds (Lev 11:19)
*The Hebrew word actually means "flying animals," since the Hebrews' zoology was measured differently from our own. Thus, bats and eagles are both "flying animals."

*Examples 1, 3, 6, and 9 do appear to be errors, most likely from translation. In each case, a list is simply miscounted. It is also possible that portions of the list got lost, and the Dead Sea Scrolls may be able to help fill in the gap. In none of these cases are things of theological significance missing. If grammatical and spelling errors were enough to conclude that something was wrong, then I shouldn't have paid any attention to my Physics or Zoology professors last semester. Only when things directly contradict each other should this be brought up. There is a legal principle that "the law takes no notice of small things," and a
similar scientific principle called the Five-percent Rule.

Garyj

My thoughts are free as well. I also am free to have faith. One of the challenges in my life is to figure out how to live truthfully with both my faith and my thoughts (reason). I am past dealing with all the "thumpers" questions you posted. Life presents questions that require more than reading Norman Geisler, Thomas Howe, or Josh McDowell in order to know those answers. This week I talked to a friend just diagnosed with skin cancer, another who is wondering how to communicate with someone who will live a couple of months, and a mother whose boy is having difficulty in school and life. Science isn't much good for that!