Jay Li

I think free will provides a dilemma, in that if there is no free will, then one cannot be held responsible for their actions. If someone holds a gun to my head and forces me to do something, punishment would be bestowed on the person with the gun, not the person that took the action.

If all lives are plotted out and there is no free will, then people cannot control their actions. Therefore, no one should be praised nor punished for anything they do. Surely this sound ludicrous, doesn't it?

magician

By the way, an interesting--if tangential--observation is that during puberty the human brain has been found to relay neural pathways in alarmingly large numbers. This explains why teenagers are, quite literally, scatterbrained.

magician

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay Li
[B]I think free will provides a dilemma, in that if there is no free will, then one cannot be held responsible for their actions.

chroot

How many times have we heard the sheep bleat this argument while in line to the gates of their Heaven?

Let's analyze.

Background: Let's picture a scene: a house catches fire, and an infant is agonizingly burned to death.

Question: Could we possibly describe God as "good" for allowing this happen?

a) Saying "but he'll go to heaven!" simply isn't good enough.
i) It was either necessary for the baby to suffer or it was not.
ii) If it was not, then it was wrong for God to allow it.
iii) If it was necessary, the fact that the baby will go to heaven does not explain why it was
necessary, and we are still left without an excuse for God's inaction.

b) Saying "The baby's death will be good in the long run, and therefore should have happened,
because otherwise God would not have permitted it." simply isn't good enough.
i) We could deliberately set houses ablaze to kill innocent people and if successful we would then know we had a duty to do it.
ii) A faith in God's goodness that depends on knowing things only after atrocities have been committed is not a form of closed, self-consistent moral structure.

c) This argument is used to counter evidence against a belief [that God might not exist, and the child burned to death by accident] by assuming the belief [that God is good and works in mysterious ways] to be true.
i) It is not unlike a lawyer defending his client by claiming that the client is innocent and therefore the evidence against him must be misleading - that proof vindicating the defendant will be found in the long run.

d) Say there's a bystander who watches the house catch fire, hears the child dying, and does nothing. Could this person be good?
i) Moral people would say "no."
ii) If you're not willing to accept such a mortal human being as good, why would you then believe an immortal God (who stands aside in the same way) is good?

- Warren

chroot

No, it isn't -- certainly no more difficult than is the concept of Cartesian determinism. You left it out, because you don't understand it. It's a crucial element of reality, ignorance notwithstanding.

- Warren

mingster

"mind over matter" maybe one day we can all become "Q"s (if you watch Star Trek:NG you'll know what i'm talking about )

as Bodhidharma (the monk credited for establishing Shaolin Temple's martial arts) once said "the most indestructable temple of faith is built not with stones, bricks, or mortar, but is built within your heart." i think that applies to everyone and anyone, whatever they believe in.

ltweintz

I posted this in another thread awhile back. Sorry to take this a little OT, but I thought I would share a little humor...

Pastor at a pub

A pastor walked into a neighborhood pub. The place was hopping with music
and dancing but every once in a while the lights would turn off. Each time
after the lights would go out the place would erupt into cheers. However,
when the revelers saw the town pastor, the room went dead silent.
He walked up to the bartender, and asked, "May I please use the restroom?" The bartender replied, "I really don't think you should." "Why not?" the pastor asked. "Well, there is a statue of a naked woman in
there, and her most private part is covered only by a fig leaf."
"Nonsense," said the pastor, "I'll just look the other way." So the bartender showed the clergyman the door at the
top of the stairs, and he proceeded to the restroom.

After a few minutes, he came back out, and the whole place was hopping with
music and dancing again. However, They did stop just long enough to give
the pastor a loud round of applause.

He went to the bartender and said, "Sir, I don't understand. Why did they
applaud for me just because I went to the restroom?" "Well, now they know
you're one of us." said the bartender. "Would you like a drink?" "But, I still don't understand," said the puzzled pastor. "You see," laughed the bartender, "every time the fig
leaf is lifted on the statue, the lights go out in the whole place.

Now, how about that drink?"

Jay Li

magician, the point I was trying to make was that free will is the only thing that is logically consistent with the way we live our lives. Consequently, I don't believe that a god has a "plan" for everyone.

Maybe that was the point you were trying to make, but if that was the case it wasn't completely clear to me.

chroot

No. It may be the only thing you understand, or the only thing you're willing to understand, but it's not the only logically consistent view of the world.

- Warren

Jay Li

That was a great joke!