808style

hey jimmy, are you still offering the service of installing the hondata gasket and mugen cooling mods? i've been talking to mike about these mods and it seems like this would be the next logical step in increasing the performance of my car.

Hyper-X

The service is still open, however I'd need to talk to my friend about when he can start doing this again. Since the work involves draining out some of the coolant and we don't believe in putting in crap (like P--stone) and use only Genuine Honda Green Premix or the new Honda Blue (extended life) coolant, the going rate for the service may go up a bit to compensate for the increase in cost of the parts.

The Hondata + Mugen cooling mods isn't a method of gaining power, it's something used to minimize power loss. The benefits are noticable in hot weather, or doing stop-n-go traffic where your car isn't moving much, therefore a lot of heat builds up under the hood and the ECU starts doing stuff to kill power... almost to the point where the power loss feels like you're taking off in 2nd gear when you're in 1st.

Have you purchased a Hondata gasket already?

808style

no, i haven't purchased the gasket yet as i needed to make sure i could find someone who could install it first. otherwise it would be pointless for me to buy it. i'm ready to purchase the gasket and all the mugen goodies as soon as i know someone here can do the install.

marc2

im pretty interested in getting the hondata gasket and the cooling mods too. how much would the installation cost?

mice

Marc2
You can order the Hondata gasket, Mugen thermostat, fan switch and radiator cap from King Motor Sports Unlimited, Inc.. Their service is fast I got my stuff within one week.

Since you live in Hawaii Kai, do you want to join us for our rally and/or party?

BlitzSRM

jimmy, remember i discussed with you about the heat sink i put on my map sensor. I believe it really works, and makes a big difference. The honda gasket, doesn't lower the decrease in the raise of intake temperature going in to the head (i hope you get what i mean), is alot less then the decrease in the intake temperature when you have a CAI. the hondata gasket is doing more then decreasing the increase in intake temperature, it must be affecting the sensors connected to the intake manifold.

Try putting a heat sink on top of the map sensor. I just experimented, using a 2x2 heatsink, 1 tie wire, and heat conductive silicon. I never took it off.

marc2

cool i ll check out the website. thanks

sure i ll be glad to meet everyone on saturday. im not 100% sure but if anything i will meet at the meeting point. i ll post up in that thread.

Hyper-X

Hey Jerry,

That's an interesting experiment, however the Hondata Insulator gasket isn't a measure to prevent any mishaps with the MAP sensor, that's a completely different issue. I think there's some confusion here (which is why I had a puzzled look when you mentioned to me the MAP sensor in relation to the Hondata Insulator ). They're 2 seperate issues and are normally discussed as such... hopefully I can go into some of the details here.

The MAP sensor issue deals with sluggish acceleration (not bucking, but more like a loss in power), hesitation in VTEC, or the inability to rev in VTEC. The MAP sensor is not dependent on the IAT sensor, the ECT sensor, the Knock sensor and the ECU, all of which is directly responsible for the "bucking issue". The Hondata is situated in a position to isolate the intake ports on the head from the intake manifold, which in itself doesn't generate any heat on its own, but acts like a giant heatsink allowing heat transfer to move from the head (hottest point on the car) to the intake manifold runners and body (coolest area on the engine). The MAP sensor is positioned on the top of the throttle body, which is actually the farthest point on the intake manifold in reference to the head. You could use a pyrometer (like my Snap On) and actually see that the MAP sensor is no where near as hot as the IAT sensor located toward the rear of the intake manifold towards the firewall.

As of this moment, to my knowledge, there's no concrete evidence as to what causes the MAP sensor to go "out of whack" to require a beating or what not. Some have replaced their MAP sensors with new ones to no avail (ask rstark) while some found success. Some whack them and found success while some haven't. Some actually installed a measure of cooling (much like your heatsink project) and some have found either success or failure. (I know of a person who went as far as install an old Intel 486 CPU heatsink w/ fan on the MAP sensor.) From what I've learned, the bucking issue is related to problems by moving off from a complete or near stop. The MAP sensor symptoms seem to plague the motor at various rpms, even in VTEC. 2 seperate issues and unrelated unfortunately. I have no solutions to the symptoms pertaining to the MAP sensor, maybe you could give us some insight as to what you think is going on inside of the sensor that gets affected by heat?

What I'm referring to in this thread is to address the cause of the "bucking" issues at near/off-idle speeds (different issue from the symptoms pertaining to the MAP sensor) which deals with a set of parameters that the ECU receives from various sensors. ECT and IAT (engine coolant temps) and (intake air temps) are the 2 most common factors which trigger the ECU to switch on the protection mode which backs off ignition timing and adds fuel (enriches the air-fuel ratio). The result is less power therefore less heat. Richening the fuel mixture also results in cooler combustion temps and exhaust gas temperatures (EGT). The other big one is knocking/pinging which can (according to Mugen via Kingmotorsports, REF article from Scott@Kingmotorsports: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showt...273&hl=bogging) reduce power up to 10hp instantly just from backing off ignition timing. Like I said before, heatsoak is the #1 issue here, especially if you're like me, stuck in traffic often. Autocross is another big issue, extracting full power from the motor in a short time, running it hard to 9000 rpms while being under 60mph for the most of it for less than 1 minute per run, then shutting down the motor between runs will rob the car of power allowing heat to transfer quickly to the intake tract, forcing the ECU to go into protection mode on your next startup.

The inside of the intake manifold benefits from moving air, so while you're on the throttle, cool air is moving inside from the throttle body to the intake runners (and therefore carrying away a % of the heat from the manifold), therefore any heat that exists within the manifold will drop in temps at a faster rate than the outside of the intake manifold which doesn't benefit from moving air. Keep in mind that whatever % of heat the air is carrying into the cylinders will also heat the air-fuel mixture and may put you at a higher risk of detonation. This is super critical to watch out for if your car is equipped with an aftermarket ECU or has been tuned using a VAFC.

Using a Snap-On pyrometer, we've recorded an external 50F difference from the head to the intake runner directly opposite the Hondata gasket. This is while the car was turned off. When you're idling, it's another story, a very minute amount of air is passed through the throttle body to keep the motor running, however the air speed and air volume isn't enough to lower the heat from the intake manifold, because the engine is still burning air and fuel and producing heat and that heat is being transfered to the intake tract side of the house faster than the small amount of moving air can carry away the excess heat buildup.

Please refer to this article for more information. Although the absolute recorded temps were different on Stephen's car and my own, the 50F temperature difference was right on the mark.
--> http://www.s2000.org/mods/insulator

We used a Snap-On OBD2 scantool module connected to my laptop and recorded the IAT and ECT sensors. This information is more critical than the above since these temps are internal and are the parameters which the ECU uses. (the ECU doesn't care what the temps are on the outside of the engine, only what's going on inside) On a stock car, ECT's jump around radically, there's a 60~80F variance while being in 3 bars and it's at its worst when idle. ECT's are most stable when you're on the highway. IAT's however is another story, it doesn't jump around like a tach... temps rise quickly and takes a while to come back down unless you're at full throttle for more than a few seconds, however once you release the throttle the temps rise back up again and takes a while to come back down.

What's been interesting to see was on my own car (when stock), the IAT temps were monitored after a generous drive. The car was then shut off so we could take a lunch break, then we turned the car on after a 30 minute break, we noticed that the IAT's were 60F higher than when we shut down! Even after we started driving around, the temps never dropped to the point before taking a break since we're driving in the city, with moderate stop and go situations. The car "bucked" during mild 1st gear take offs and felt very sluggish at lower speeds at part throttle.

-----------------------------------------------
The characteristics of a stock car...

- ECT's rise and fall all over the place while idle
- IAT's rise quickly and falls slowly (unless you're at full throttle for more than a few secs.)
- average ECT readings are 45F hotter than a Mugen cooling mod equipped car
- average IAT readings are 40~60F hotter than a car equipped with a Hondata gasket
- heatsoaking of the intake manifold after driving results in very high temps within 30 minutes of next startup, measured both externally and at the IAT sensor
- higher risk of detonation with higher intake charge temps (higher air-fuel temps)
- ECU switches on the protection mode and pulls timing away often, especially in city traffic
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The characteristics of a Hondata + Mugen cooling modded car...

- ECT's still rise and fall a lot while idle (see below for details)
- IAT's rise at a slower rate than a stock car and temps drop at a slightly faster rate than a stock car
- average ECT readings are about 45F less but average temps are 35~55F less (due to a lower temp t-stat and radiator fans switching on more often)
- average IAT readings are 50F less than a stock car
- heatsoaking of the intake manifold is a non-issue since external and internal readings via pyrometer and IAT sensors saw falling temps after the motor is turned off
- lower risk of detonation due to heating of the intake air charge
- ECU still switches on the protection mode, but at a much lesser degree

sorry for the long post.

BlitzSRM

They are separate issues. But, from what I have been reading the effects of the installation of the hondata gasket is greater then the installation of a CAI??? That made me wonder why?

I did some searches on how certain types of map sensors work. there are 2 major types: filiment type, and vacum. both types are affected by overheating. overheating will cause the map sensor to send erroneous signals to the ECU.

The hondata gasket, decreases the intake manifold temperature. My theory is, the decrease in intake manifold temperature alleviates the erroneous signals sent to the ECU. It

Silvers808

im pretty sure im still intrested in the hondata gasket and install....

if im gonna go that i should jsut get the fan switch and thermostat at teh same time......

let us know jimmy...... also would your friend be able to do a valve adjustment?