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Well, I can't help but see how much of a difference it makes on having it on my car, even though I haven't had it on for very long. I did manage to take some thermal measurements of the before, during and after autocross-type driving, and of course I took measurements based on normal day to day driving. This is one of the must-do mods IMHO, but being that it's summer, I also recommend doing the Mugen cooling mods such as the fan switch, thermostat, and rad cap at the same time. One of the biggest improvements it makes is that it minimizes the bogging issue.
The kangaroo'ing/bogging issues that is inherent of the S2000 is primarily caused by 3 things... the MAP sensor, heat and the ECU. The MAP sensor can be dealt with by whacking it with the back of a padded screwdriver (but not too hard) but you can't do much about the ECU. Heat is therefore the only other thing you can do something about. By installing the Hondata insulator, I observed on Stephen's Mugen S2000 to have the #1 intake runner at ~120F, while the head was over 175F. My car measured at 185F at the head (since I didn't have the Mugen cooling mods then) and the #1 intake runner opposite the Hondata gasket measured in at 130~132F after a hard run during autocross. A 50F difference is huge as it may be the difference between whether the ECU decides to back off ignition timing (which contributes to the bogging) and lowers power output, especially at lower rpms. The stock ECU was datalogged on my laptop to retard timing a lot even before it sensed knock. It's a good move by Honda to keep things reliable, but it's a little too paranoid and backs off too much timing. By keeping the engine cooler and the IAT (intake air temps) cooler, you can benefit from keeping more of the ignition timing curve (which helps low end power) and minimize the bogging problems.
I've read numerous threads about how difficult it is to install this 60 dollar mod and the time it takes, some saying it took almost an entire day, some saying it took 4 guys between 2 days... however my friend and I (ASE certified Honda mechanic) did the entire job in under 3 hours without rushing, and without using power tools. We've discovered an effective method of doing this correctly without messing anything up. (no, we didn't have to yank out the engine)
If you're like me where the insulator is sitting in your room for months on end and wanted to have it installed, we're offering to do it for $200 to include the coolant required to replenish the system (yes we only use the genuine Honda premix, not the Prestone rubbish).
If you're interested, please respond to this thread so I can get an idea of how many people are interested and we can work a schedule and time for this to happen.
Folks, anyone considering this mod should seriously consider this offer. $200 is a great deal IMO unless you just like to do it for the challenge.
Including gasket price, $260 would be a helluva deal for the increase in driveability in the hot Hawaiian weather.
Originally Posted by 808style,Jul 13 2004, 10:35 PM
does this mod make that much of a difference? or do i need to get the rest of the cooling mods first before i realize any benefit?
hmmm. I did the cooling mods at the same time so I couldn't tell you for sure. I think Jimmy has only the gasket, and he seems to notice the difference.
Let me describe the benefit this way.
Do you notice how the s2k's throttle is responsive and "peppy" after a cold start-up?
Do you also notice how sluggish it starts to feel after you've been sitting in traffic, particularly when it's hot and humid outside like now?
The gasket helps to minimize the sluggish feeling and keep the engine feeling, shall I say "fresh".
It doesn't eliminate it completely if you're really stuck in stop-n-go traffic, but it helps a lot.
Since we don't live in a location where our s2k's will be exposed to sub-zero weather, there is no drawback to doing this mod.
Unless, of course, you decide to install it yourself.
Stephen is correct. I only had the Hondata insulator during our July 4th autocross event, but I've since installed the other Mugen cooling mods to include the t-stat, f-switch and rad cap. Of the 4, the rad cap is the only thing that I don't believe is necessary since the lower temp t-stat will open sooner and the engine won't see as high a pressure as stock to require using a higher pressure cap, but it's a cheap mod, and is the only piece that has a Mugen label on it. The stock rad cap is 1.1 bar and the Mugen is 1.3
Steve already mentioned about how it feels stronger when cold and a little more hesitant when hot in stop-n-go traffic, this is undeniably true and contributes to all sorts of problems not just isolated to driving. Here's why.
When you start your car cold, the IAT (intake air temps) are cool... the intake manifold is cold, the head and block is cold, and so is the coolant. The OEM ECU knows that there's very little risk of detonation so it allows for more ignition timing (which results in more power down low). This contributes to a very comfortable driving experience on the street.
* detonation = the air/fuel mixture igniting from heat hot enough to ignite the mixture instead of the spark plug. (in other words, a mis-timed ignition)
After your car reaches 3 bars, the thermostat opens up and hot coolant starts circulating throughout the engine. At the same time, the head is heated up and transfers a good portion of that heat to the intake manifold, which in turn heats the incoming cool air before reaching the cylinders. What I've discovered is that the gasket between the head and the intake manifold is a super thin sheet of metal (not your typical soft gasket material) which is knife-sharp. This only makes it easier for the heat to reach the intake.
If your car is stock, there's also coolant flowing through your throttle body (to help cars in cold winter climates) and continues on to the side of the intake manifold to heat the large chamber before going back towards the block. Being in Hawaii, all of this is bad because our kind of cold is warmer that most other state's hot. We don't need the added help of heating anything in our car.
When you're driving on the freeway, the throttle butterfly is cracked open and allows cool outside air to flow into the engine, which also helps cool the intake manifold to some degree. Once you get off the freeway and into stop and go traffic, the butterfly is mostly closed (idling) and hardly any cool air worth mentioning is reaching the manifold to help cool it off, so the heat from the head starts soaking the intake until both the intake runners and the head are very close in temps (less than 5 degree variance, as measured on my pyrometer). If you somewhat stop at a 7-11 to get coffee and shut the motor off, there's no cool air at all to cool off the intake manifold and now the head gets a straight shot at releasing all of its heat, soaking and bathing the manifold. You come back to the car, start it up and the manifold is hotter than it was running. (I've confirmed this during autocross after hard runs and shut down our motors, and took measurements of my car versus Stephen's).
Now what does all this heat amount to? We all know that heated air is less dense than cold air, meaning cooler air contains more oxygen in the same given space than hot air. Hot air means less air, therefore in order to maintain the proper air to fuel ratio, the ECU needs to remove some fuel to keep the AF balanced. Hot air also means that the internals are now more prone to detonation (also referred to as knocking and pinging). The OEM ECU is very protective of the engine and will flinch at the first sign of detonation by a lot. This means it pulls away ignition timing and robs you of low end power, which is crucial to stop-n-go driving, plus the engine is already outputing less power since less air (heated air) and fuel means less HP and TQ. Imagine riding a cruiser bicycle and just when you need to start accelerating from a complete stop, your body somehow is sapped of a % of your strength at the same time, and may cause you to stumble... the effect is worse if you're planning on going uphill or subject yourself to large loads.
From a thermal standpoint, for every 5 degrees F of heat reduction, you yield approximately 1% in power (if you want to look at it this way, it could mean that you'd lose 1% less). Stephen's car at HRP recorded a difference of 55 degrees F from the intake runner and the head directly opposite the insulator, translating to about a 11% increase in power, or he's losing 11% less power than a completely stock S2000. Having the insulator also minimizes the issue of heat soak attributed to shutting off the motor, making your intake tract much more heat resistant. The Hondata insulator also blocks off a certain coolant hole (not crucial to the car) that would pass heat to the intake.
Q: Will installing this insulator solve all your woes on bogging?
A: No. There are other things involved than just heat.
Q: Will I notice anything worthwhile?
A: I did. The car drives more consistently in traffic, bogs a lot less.
Q: Who should benefit more from this item?
A: Everyone can benefit, but if your car is modded where it's producing more power than stock, it's a good idea to do this. More power = more heat produced, so you need to control temperatures the best you can. If you're planning on using an aftermarket ECU, a header w/ no heatshield, an intake that grabs air from a hot-air source, or even superchargers and turbochargers where the compressor will heat the intake charge (even with an intercooler/aftercooler), this would be a very worthwhile mod.
damn thanks for the informative replies guys! that was an awesome write-up hyper-x! you've pretty much sold me on the hondata gasket. as far as the t-stat, fan switch and rad cap, how much would those pieces run and are those things something a noob like me can install?
Thx. I'm not as good as the old-timers but I'm trying.
I got the Mugen cooling parts from Kingmotorsports
Go to the Mugen section and click on engine. You'll find all the parts there.
2 of the 3 Mugen parts are easy, but make sure you have replacement coolant handy since you'll need to drain it to install the fan switch (driver's side on the bottom of the radiator) and the thermostat (the most difficult to get to, but you must get to it from underneath your car). Watch your face since you'll likely be directly below it and when that housing comes off, hot coolant will rush out. Therefore, make sure your car is cold and not just "cool".
The fan switch is easy to get to but you will need to remove the plastic underbody plate to get to it. Make sure to not break those clips because you'll need to put them back. Once the plastic underbody is off, it's easy to get to the fan switch.
I won't say anything about the rad cap for obvious reasons. Here's a helpful hint:
When you remove the stock thermostat, make sure it has the rubber gasket on it and take notice of the rubber gasket's orientation to the jiggle valve on the thermostat. Now look at the Mugen thermostat and make sure that it's identically set the same way as the stock piece. My Mugen thermostat had the gasket 180 degrees in the wrong way.
After the frustration of putting in the thermostat, you can get up and raise the front of your car higher than the back and start refilling the coolant (please don't use Prestone, Peak or any of the off-the-shelf crap) use the genuine Honda premixed stuff that doesn't require water (believe me, it's really REALLY good stuff).
The Hondata is not something for a person not familiar with this car... we have a few guys here that know S2000's far better than I did back then and went through some trials and tribulations to get that piece in.
i know for sure the only way i'd ever get the hondata gasket is if your offer still stood for providing installation services. no way would i trust myself to do it. as far as the mugen cooling mods, they sound pretty do-able except it seems that thermostat is tricky. i don't know about that rad cap though, i might have to get that professionally done at goodyear or something!
07-08-2004, 07:55 PM
Hondata Insulator Install Service
that was an awesome write-up hyper-x! you've pretty much sold me on the hondata gasket. as far as the t-stat, fan switch and rad cap, how much would those pieces run and are those things something a noob like me can install?
I'm not as good as the old-timers but I'm trying.