Need experience shop to dyno and tune V-afc?
03-21-2004, 02:37 PM
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Need experience shop to dyno and tune V-afc?
Iam just 10 mins outside of Phily ( to be exact I live in Bucks County) i have a V-afc that need to be installed and tune, any place you guys can recomend that have decent expereince with S2000's????
03-22-2004, 05:47 AM
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I can tune them. I have a wideband and I am close to a dyno, but I won't wire them for you. I hate cutting into the wiring harnesses.
There are 2 things though about the VAFC that you should know. One is you cannot tune partial throttle do to open loop conditions. Secondly with OBDII engines I have seen a huge inconsistency with tuning because the ecu's try to compensate for the change in signal. When you tune the maps and make another run they can be off. I spent a few hours tuning an allmotor ITR with a stock OBDII ecu. Got the A/F perfect 13.2 across the board. When I ran a few minutes later the settings were the same but the A/F values all changed (Heatsoak and IAT have something to do with that also, but it was a drastic change). VAFC is such a patch fuel management solution with OBDII setups.
If you only make small adjustments with the AFC it works alot better, but you can never richen higher than 0. The reason for this is that your ecu has maps up to atmospheric pressure (WOT) = 100% throttle. So if you try to richen the mixture it doesn't work well becuase you are trying to put more than 100% duty cycle through your stock injectors.
There are 2 things though about the VAFC that you should know. One is you cannot tune partial throttle do to open loop conditions. Secondly with OBDII engines I have seen a huge inconsistency with tuning because the ecu's try to compensate for the change in signal. When you tune the maps and make another run they can be off. I spent a few hours tuning an allmotor ITR with a stock OBDII ecu. Got the A/F perfect 13.2 across the board. When I ran a few minutes later the settings were the same but the A/F values all changed (Heatsoak and IAT have something to do with that also, but it was a drastic change). VAFC is such a patch fuel management solution with OBDII setups.
If you only make small adjustments with the AFC it works alot better, but you can never richen higher than 0. The reason for this is that your ecu has maps up to atmospheric pressure (WOT) = 100% throttle. So if you try to richen the mixture it doesn't work well becuase you are trying to put more than 100% duty cycle through your stock injectors.
03-22-2004, 06:39 AM
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Well, here a question for you then. Since I would like to go with F/I in the fall, is there a better solution then a VAFC? The main reason for me going with a VAFC was in preperation for the supercharger. If there is something better that you could recomend, I'm all for it
03-22-2004, 08:47 AM
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Here is my take on FI for S2000's.
After many fuel setups with my car, and learning what works and what doesn't, I have concluded that the most important aspect to making a good power and good reliable FI motor is to not skimp on the Fuel management. I have gone through many setups and the only one I recommend anymore is a standalone.
I run hondata on my Turbo ITR, but unfortunately there are no applications for the S2000. What is great about hondata is that it uses Honda's ecu technology, but still allows a fully programmable system. After going to a hondata seminar over the weekend I see more and more why Honda makes some of the sickest most reliable engines ever. Anyway sorry to ramble, on to the S2000.
While GReddy emanage is not a total standalone, it utilizes a bunch of harnesses to allow it to become as close to a standalone as possible. The easy interface and functionality are good for users who know minimal about standalones yet want to learn to tune their cars. Emanage in my eyes is a step up from an AFC (allows timing changes) but a step down from an AEM EMS or similar standalone. With all the harnesses you are talking close to $800-900. Another downer to the Emanage is there aren't many who use it locally, so finding a tuner is harder.
AEM EMS. Here we go.... AEM is a great standalone. While I would say it is more for a race car than a daily driver its functionality is top notch. So much so that I think there are too many features. There are soo many parameters that need to be set and adjusted that it gets way too overwhelming. THose of my friends who have AEM have either had problems or have ran fine. If you are inexperienced with tuning the AEM is not for you. I tried messing with it and I am fairly familiar with standalones. I got a friggin headache at all the stuff you have to adjust. Fortunately I know some good tuners in the area who can get you running very good. Tuning time takes awhile and many times the AEM is finicky. I like the AEM for a full race car but for street use, all those settings will never be used. Expect to pay $1200 or so. There are many forums and people who use AEM so the support is there.
Other options. Another Full standalone that is worth looking into is micro-tech. It is a newer up and coming standalone that is supposed to be really great. You can check a thread my tuner made on it here. http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=151 Again though this is for more experienced tuners.
Here is an article I wrote on FI fuel management solutions. This might shed some more light on why different solutions are good or bad. http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=60
In conclusion, I would say if you are not going crazy with the setup and are using moderate boost levels (under 10psi) I think Emanage is a decent solution for the S2000. As Beroz has used it and has been pretty happy. The tuning is easier than AEM and it is a fun system to learn with. The optional E-01 display can be used in car to adjust any parameters. For boost levels over 10psi I would reccomend the AEM EMS. The functionality and control are top notch and since there are more tuners out there you can be assured that the car will be setup right. It also depends on whether you want to tune yourself or have a tuner do it. I don't know many people who play around with Emanage, but I can find AEM tuners around here pretty easily. Go with what you or your tuner know. Thats what you should base your decision on.
Don't ever let anyone tell you that your stock motor is not good to boost. We made 311whp on my friends stock ITR motor with 8psi of boost. It was a daily driver and ran perfect even with our stock 10.6:1 compression. The thing that you must consider when running high compression is cylinder pressure. Make fuel maps around 12:1 in boost, timing conservative and retard in boost. Your motor will last a long time. TUNE TUNE TUNE.
-Nate
After many fuel setups with my car, and learning what works and what doesn't, I have concluded that the most important aspect to making a good power and good reliable FI motor is to not skimp on the Fuel management. I have gone through many setups and the only one I recommend anymore is a standalone.
I run hondata on my Turbo ITR, but unfortunately there are no applications for the S2000. What is great about hondata is that it uses Honda's ecu technology, but still allows a fully programmable system. After going to a hondata seminar over the weekend I see more and more why Honda makes some of the sickest most reliable engines ever. Anyway sorry to ramble, on to the S2000.
While GReddy emanage is not a total standalone, it utilizes a bunch of harnesses to allow it to become as close to a standalone as possible. The easy interface and functionality are good for users who know minimal about standalones yet want to learn to tune their cars. Emanage in my eyes is a step up from an AFC (allows timing changes) but a step down from an AEM EMS or similar standalone. With all the harnesses you are talking close to $800-900. Another downer to the Emanage is there aren't many who use it locally, so finding a tuner is harder.
AEM EMS. Here we go.... AEM is a great standalone. While I would say it is more for a race car than a daily driver its functionality is top notch. So much so that I think there are too many features. There are soo many parameters that need to be set and adjusted that it gets way too overwhelming. THose of my friends who have AEM have either had problems or have ran fine. If you are inexperienced with tuning the AEM is not for you. I tried messing with it and I am fairly familiar with standalones. I got a friggin headache at all the stuff you have to adjust. Fortunately I know some good tuners in the area who can get you running very good. Tuning time takes awhile and many times the AEM is finicky. I like the AEM for a full race car but for street use, all those settings will never be used. Expect to pay $1200 or so. There are many forums and people who use AEM so the support is there.
Other options. Another Full standalone that is worth looking into is micro-tech. It is a newer up and coming standalone that is supposed to be really great. You can check a thread my tuner made on it here. http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=151 Again though this is for more experienced tuners.
Here is an article I wrote on FI fuel management solutions. This might shed some more light on why different solutions are good or bad. http://www.boosted-hybrid.com/viewtopic.php?t=60
In conclusion, I would say if you are not going crazy with the setup and are using moderate boost levels (under 10psi) I think Emanage is a decent solution for the S2000. As Beroz has used it and has been pretty happy. The tuning is easier than AEM and it is a fun system to learn with. The optional E-01 display can be used in car to adjust any parameters. For boost levels over 10psi I would reccomend the AEM EMS. The functionality and control are top notch and since there are more tuners out there you can be assured that the car will be setup right. It also depends on whether you want to tune yourself or have a tuner do it. I don't know many people who play around with Emanage, but I can find AEM tuners around here pretty easily. Go with what you or your tuner know. Thats what you should base your decision on.
Don't ever let anyone tell you that your stock motor is not good to boost. We made 311whp on my friends stock ITR motor with 8psi of boost. It was a daily driver and ran perfect even with our stock 10.6:1 compression. The thing that you must consider when running high compression is cylinder pressure. Make fuel maps around 12:1 in boost, timing conservative and retard in boost. Your motor will last a long time. TUNE TUNE TUNE.
-Nate
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03-22-2004, 12:54 PM
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Thanks for the great info Nate So basically your saying to go with an AEM or the GReddy emanage? If we are talking a difference of 300 bucks, personally I'd rather go with the AEM set up. I like the fact that it's plug and play (if it truly is) and I'm not cutting up harnesses. That alone is worth the difference in price to me.
The one question I have is, that is the AEM system a "set it and forget it" system, or will it be something that I have to constantly play with? Ok...Two questions. This will be my first engine mamagement system, am I getting in wayyyy over my head with this thing?
So basically your saying to go with an AEM or the GReddy emanage? If we are talking a difference of 300 bucks, personally I'd rather go with the AEM set up. I like the fact that it's plug and play (if it truly is) and I'm not cutting up harnesses. That alone is worth the difference in price to me. The one question I have is, that is the AEM system a "set it and forget it" system, or will it be something that I have to constantly play with? Ok...Two questions. This will be my first engine mamagement system, am I getting in wayyyy over my head with this thing?
03-22-2004, 01:08 PM
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No problem guys. I am a boost junky 
AEM is a plug and play standalone meaning that it has its own unit that you can plug into your stock OBDII engine harness. AEM is not even close to a set it and forget it type system.
First off never use a basemap on any standalone, whether you think it is safe or not, and boost your car (Unless you can verify the A/F ratios and timing). These maps tend to be very inaccurate and can either be super rich or super lean. They are there to help you limp your way to the dyno or a tuner.
Second, ALways have a professional or someone who knows what the hell they are doing tune the system. If this is your first standalone and you are going to try to tune it yourself, you might as well give me your blown engine and I'll kick you in the nuts. There is alot of parameters that need to be adjusted to set the AEM up right.
Once fully tuned (Partial throttle/ Full Throttle) you should be good as far as not having to tune further unless you change your setup or add something. Best thing to do is get everything on you want and tune. This way you wont have to retune at a later time. AEM should adjust open loop for seasonal changes, and as long as the WOT maps are done well you will only see about a .3 to .4 a/f change during seasons. Hope this clears some things up for you.
AEM is a plug and play standalone meaning that it has its own unit that you can plug into your stock OBDII engine harness. AEM is not even close to a set it and forget it type system.First off never use a basemap on any standalone, whether you think it is safe or not, and boost your car (Unless you can verify the A/F ratios and timing). These maps tend to be very inaccurate and can either be super rich or super lean. They are there to help you limp your way to the dyno or a tuner.
Second, ALways have a professional or someone who knows what the hell they are doing tune the system. If this is your first standalone and you are going to try to tune it yourself, you might as well give me your blown engine and I'll kick you in the nuts. There is alot of parameters that need to be adjusted to set the AEM up right.
Once fully tuned (Partial throttle/ Full Throttle) you should be good as far as not having to tune further unless you change your setup or add something. Best thing to do is get everything on you want and tune. This way you wont have to retune at a later time. AEM should adjust open loop for seasonal changes, and as long as the WOT maps are done well you will only see about a .3 to .4 a/f change during seasons. Hope this clears some things up for you.