Tranny Fluid Change GM Synchro is Great
04-01-2010, 09:37 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Tranny Fluid Change GM Synchro is Great
I posted this over ---------------there.
Thought I'd share it here.
I just did a trans fluid change.
In the past I have used Honda MTF new and old, This is my first experience with GM Delco Synchromesh Transmission fluid. I took her around the block and what a difference.
Needless to say, I'm sold. Just thought I'd pass it on.
Thought I'd share it here.
I just did a trans fluid change.
In the past I have used Honda MTF new and old, This is my first experience with GM Delco Synchromesh Transmission fluid. I took her around the block and what a difference.
Needless to say, I'm sold. Just thought I'd pass it on.
04-01-2010, 10:00 AM
#3
Moderator
I've used both Honda MTF and the GMSFM over the years, I think the GMSFM is hands down better, but that is how it is designed. Its not simple oil like the Honda MTF, its designed to act like a thicker oil while having lighter oil characteristics.
04-01-2010, 05:32 PM
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There is a penzoil syncromesh that is sold at Autozone that is the same stuff as the GM brand that I have ran in many of my cars. I think I even have 3 bottles still in the garage, and much cheaper than the GM stuff 
I need to change mine soon, just debating on what I want to go with.
I need to change mine soon, just debating on what I want to go with.
04-01-2010, 08:38 PM
#6
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I have been told that the Pennzoil is a blend or dino oil that shears down too quickly, vs the GM or Delco that is 100% synth and holds up better.
The GMSFM can typically be bought at a Cadillac dealership for $11-14 a bottle.
The GMSFM can typically be bought at a Cadillac dealership for $11-14 a bottle.
04-02-2010, 03:56 AM
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Not sure? Also BG makes Syncroshift as well.
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/images/...nchrosfhift.png
http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/images/...nchrosfhift.png
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04-02-2010, 05:34 AM
#8
Moderator
All I know is that GM SMFM has had at least three different iterations over the years, some supposedly made by Texaco, some not. Honda oil is Mobil mineral oil. Road Rage, when he was here, did oil analyses and this is what he had to say on it:
Probably the best source of info I've seen to date.
The RR Journals: GM Synchromesh FM Analysis
Many people have asked about alternative fluids to Honda's MTF for the 6MT. This is an analysis I just did for the guys at s2ki.com, many of whom swear by GMS FM, but wanted to be sure it would not harm the S2000's tranny - it won't - nor the 6MT in the TL. Enough intro, here the skinny:
Well, I got my 6-qt case from GMPARTSDIRECT,COM. Not sure it is the best deal, as they added a $14 "handling" charge and $5 of shipping for cryin' out loud!
The good news is that all the ingredients are listed:
1) "Severely solvent refined, solvent de-waxed, heavy parafinnic petroleum distillates"
RR: This is the "semi-synthetic" base oil. It is likely a GIII hydrocracked mineral oil - I love the use of the word 'severely'. Shows some poetic creativity on some engineer's part. This is a better base oil than Honda's MTF, but not as good as Red Line's. That does not mean it is not a better tranny lube, however.
2) "Benzene, C10-16 alkyl derivatives"
RR: Also known as Benzenesulfonic acid, this is used in, of all things, Clorox bleach! It is a surfactant, here used I would imagine to keep parts clean; it may also act as a carrier for the other ingredients.
3) "Methacrylic acid, copolymer of 'methyl' and 'lauryl' esters"
RR: Here is used as an ester oil. This is the synthetic part of the formulation, and is chemically representative of esters in general; highest resistance to heat degeneration, high detergency. Good stuff. In other forms it is often used to make contact lenses.
4) "Sulfonic acids, petroleum, magnesium salts"
RR: These are the friction modifiers - they may also play a part in friction reduction.
5) "Hydrotreated heavy parafinnic petroleum disitillates"
RR Similar to #1, but not as purified - less 'severe'; could be somewhere between a GII and GIII.
6) "Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate"
RR: The is the famous ZDP you have seen me mention frequently - these compounds represent the best anti-wear tyechnology yet developed - the SL engine oils have reduced amounts to save the mfr's having to pay for catalytic converter damage. The oil industry supposedly added other chemistry to make up for the reduced ZDP. Let's hope that they used a lot here, as they do not have to pander to the car mfr's.
I would say this is an excellent formulation - better than Honda's MTF, and very competitive with Red Line. It should have a bit less service life, but if it offers better gear action than RL MTL or MT-90, I think gearheads would gladly give up longevity for shift feel.
Nice job, GM.
....
I will say that the Red Line MTL did reduce the notchiness of the S2000 when cold, and that the analysis we did of Honda MTF was not at all impressive. They claim it can last 30k miles, but by 15k its additive pack was so depleted that it was scary. It is not the best choice for any tranny in my opinion.
I would go with the GMSFM, and see how it works for you.
....
Just for reminders, here are fluids I have tried in S2000, and a few TL's:
Honda Genuine MTF
Red Line MTL
Red Line MT-90
GMS
GMS FM
Pennzoil Syncromesh
BG Products
Many people have asked about alternative fluids to Honda's MTF for the 6MT. This is an analysis I just did for the guys at s2ki.com, many of whom swear by GMS FM, but wanted to be sure it would not harm the S2000's tranny - it won't - nor the 6MT in the TL. Enough intro, here the skinny:
Well, I got my 6-qt case from GMPARTSDIRECT,COM. Not sure it is the best deal, as they added a $14 "handling" charge and $5 of shipping for cryin' out loud!
The good news is that all the ingredients are listed:
1) "Severely solvent refined, solvent de-waxed, heavy parafinnic petroleum distillates"
RR: This is the "semi-synthetic" base oil. It is likely a GIII hydrocracked mineral oil - I love the use of the word 'severely'. Shows some poetic creativity on some engineer's part. This is a better base oil than Honda's MTF, but not as good as Red Line's. That does not mean it is not a better tranny lube, however.
2) "Benzene, C10-16 alkyl derivatives"
RR: Also known as Benzenesulfonic acid, this is used in, of all things, Clorox bleach! It is a surfactant, here used I would imagine to keep parts clean; it may also act as a carrier for the other ingredients.
3) "Methacrylic acid, copolymer of 'methyl' and 'lauryl' esters"
RR: Here is used as an ester oil. This is the synthetic part of the formulation, and is chemically representative of esters in general; highest resistance to heat degeneration, high detergency. Good stuff. In other forms it is often used to make contact lenses.
4) "Sulfonic acids, petroleum, magnesium salts"
RR: These are the friction modifiers - they may also play a part in friction reduction.
5) "Hydrotreated heavy parafinnic petroleum disitillates"
RR Similar to #1, but not as purified - less 'severe'; could be somewhere between a GII and GIII.
6) "Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate"
RR: The is the famous ZDP you have seen me mention frequently - these compounds represent the best anti-wear tyechnology yet developed - the SL engine oils have reduced amounts to save the mfr's having to pay for catalytic converter damage. The oil industry supposedly added other chemistry to make up for the reduced ZDP. Let's hope that they used a lot here, as they do not have to pander to the car mfr's.
I would say this is an excellent formulation - better than Honda's MTF, and very competitive with Red Line. It should have a bit less service life, but if it offers better gear action than RL MTL or MT-90, I think gearheads would gladly give up longevity for shift feel.
Nice job, GM.
....
I will say that the Red Line MTL did reduce the notchiness of the S2000 when cold, and that the analysis we did of Honda MTF was not at all impressive. They claim it can last 30k miles, but by 15k its additive pack was so depleted that it was scary. It is not the best choice for any tranny in my opinion.
I would go with the GMSFM, and see how it works for you.
....
Just for reminders, here are fluids I have tried in S2000, and a few TL's:
Honda Genuine MTF
Red Line MTL
Red Line MT-90
GMS
GMS FM
Pennzoil Syncromesh
BG Products
04-02-2010, 05:49 AM
#9
Moderator
More RR stuff, since it can be hard to find:
Here is a very good article that goes into detail about how essential the compatibility of addtives, lubricity, etc play in the correct function of a manual tranny.
http://www.mosesludel.com/news/index...mid=35&catid=1
Note, the specific case mentions where an owner went to an exotic synthetic, and his shifting went down the tubes - I have even seen cases where the different trannies made by the same mfr (BMW) and its supplier performed well with Red Line in one case, poorly in another. That is why I harp on the anecdotal experiences - trannies are all about feel, not some numbers on a page. Given adequate basic numbers, it is the combination of base fluid lubricity, and the exact timing of the synchro action, which is mostly determined by the additive colloids. If one hits upon the right combo, there is magic.
My experiences verify this. On paper, Red Line's MTL looks like "the best". It has an exotic base oil, full synthetic, proper viscosity, and has a promising COF (coefficient of friction) profile. But in the S2000, its performance was no better than the Honda Genuine MTF. It probably would last longer, but since this box has about the best shifting in the world, "feel" is paramount to confidence on the track, or when speed shifting under any circumstances. RL MTL just did not cut it.
I was disappointed. One of the S2000 "gear heads" with very solid wrenching credentials, and a lot of track time, pointed me to GMS FM. I got the engineering info from GM, in my capacity as an auto (and audio) journalist (hobby). The basic engineering of the lube looked great - I have posted it - a solid GIII base stock with esters added.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the GMS FM was well digested by the S2000 box.
I have done 3 3G TL 6MT's, and no one has complained yet.
I am not saying Amsoil's product is not good - it may be the best for all we know. There just is no empiric or anecdotal evidence yet. The jury is out.
RR.
http://www.mosesludel.com/news/index...mid=35&catid=1
Note, the specific case mentions where an owner went to an exotic synthetic, and his shifting went down the tubes - I have even seen cases where the different trannies made by the same mfr (BMW) and its supplier performed well with Red Line in one case, poorly in another. That is why I harp on the anecdotal experiences - trannies are all about feel, not some numbers on a page. Given adequate basic numbers, it is the combination of base fluid lubricity, and the exact timing of the synchro action, which is mostly determined by the additive colloids. If one hits upon the right combo, there is magic.
My experiences verify this. On paper, Red Line's MTL looks like "the best". It has an exotic base oil, full synthetic, proper viscosity, and has a promising COF (coefficient of friction) profile. But in the S2000, its performance was no better than the Honda Genuine MTF. It probably would last longer, but since this box has about the best shifting in the world, "feel" is paramount to confidence on the track, or when speed shifting under any circumstances. RL MTL just did not cut it.
I was disappointed. One of the S2000 "gear heads" with very solid wrenching credentials, and a lot of track time, pointed me to GMS FM. I got the engineering info from GM, in my capacity as an auto (and audio) journalist (hobby). The basic engineering of the lube looked great - I have posted it - a solid GIII base stock with esters added.
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the GMS FM was well digested by the S2000 box.
I have done 3 3G TL 6MT's, and no one has complained yet.
I am not saying Amsoil's product is not good - it may be the best for all we know. There just is no empiric or anecdotal evidence yet. The jury is out.
RR.
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