Yet another NSX Rumour
07-17-2008, 08:53 AM
#21
Originally Posted by Subaru2000,Jul 17 2008, 05:39 PM
You don't seem to be doing a good job at arguing semantics at the moment, most of your lexicon seems to be based on being a blinked Honda owner with a massive chip on your shoulder about anything German
BTW the French remark is probably 'tongue in cheek' too coming from Nick
07-17-2008, 09:11 AM
#22
Originally Posted by jml,Jul 17 2008, 04:53 PM
Make that French, although it could be argued that when it comes to masterpieces the Citroen 15 and later the DS would fill in that description rather nicely.
BTW the French remark is probably 'tongue in cheek' too coming from Nick
BTW the French remark is probably 'tongue in cheek' too coming from Nick
Even the GS; it brought a lot of that sophistication to the middle class market. Even the Wankel version. The SM was a grande complication and a personal favourite.
I'd also add the 2CV. Pierre Boulanger's masterpiece of 1030s minimalism(e). (EDIT; I meant 1930's, but the original is somehow more insulting!)
Panhard did some very novel stuff too. The Dyna was mostly aluminium IIRC and an example was bought by Borgward for his innovative smaller models.
Peugeot used to make some fine cars (voitures ordinaire) once, but it's hard to think of a masterpiece. No; I'll venture the 204/304 for its mid-engine layout (copied by M-B for the A-class) and making Issigonis' brilliant ideas work properly. But that's not really a masterpiece.
Honestly, I'd have a lot less irritation with French cars if they'd stop trying to be different for the sake of it by using dodgy fittings and electrical connectors. Front spoiler on a friend's Laguna was stapled on; when she pranged it, I had no choice but to rip it off and it couldn't be re-attached. Plain daft.
07-17-2008, 09:42 AM
#24
Renault used to plagiarise Citroen, so I generally disdain them.
Interesting point, though.
When you look at how many they sell worldwide, especially in Britain, and you look at how low the JD Power results are, it's astounding. If they were British (we nearly got the R18 instead of the Honda Ballade as a new BL car
) we'd simply not buy them. I really fail to understand the mass market.
The R30's SFM V6 was a case in point; a really well-designed engine, many failed because they CBA to wash the swarf out of the oil galleys when they bored them. The R30 rusted and was totally wrong for the market. So little better than the Princess/SD1 in reality. Yet somehow, they sell. It's even argued that Nissan's quality has gone to pot since the takeover, yet people will STILL risk one. There have been relible ones like the R19, but that had as much chic as a Chery, or something. Maybe it got the numbers back up.
I'd long argued that FIATs were usually no worse-built and were a better drive, yet they are nearly a British Leyland case.
To a certain extent, it may be that French protectionism got Renault through the worst, the manufacturing never got as fractious as it did in the UK (The BL scenario was an exceptional example of idiots in the asylum) and through international dealings, they obtained a critical mass.
But really, one must look at the modern UK operations. The vehicles have far more fashionable appeal than anything French (being more prestige, not mass-market); although I still hear worrying noises about JLR reliability (so do the owners) and even Mini with their non-exploding airbags & creaky steering.
However, the Japanese cars made here are generally excellent. Which takes us full circle; it's the detail in the engineering and the manufacturing process that makes a good car, not some 'image' created by repeating the mantra "....make good cars" until everyone believes it!
Interesting point, though.
When you look at how many they sell worldwide, especially in Britain, and you look at how low the JD Power results are, it's astounding. If they were British (we nearly got the R18 instead of the Honda Ballade as a new BL car
) we'd simply not buy them. I really fail to understand the mass market.The R30's SFM V6 was a case in point; a really well-designed engine, many failed because they CBA to wash the swarf out of the oil galleys when they bored them. The R30 rusted and was totally wrong for the market. So little better than the Princess/SD1 in reality. Yet somehow, they sell. It's even argued that Nissan's quality has gone to pot since the takeover, yet people will STILL risk one. There have been relible ones like the R19, but that had as much chic as a Chery, or something. Maybe it got the numbers back up.
I'd long argued that FIATs were usually no worse-built and were a better drive, yet they are nearly a British Leyland case.
To a certain extent, it may be that French protectionism got Renault through the worst, the manufacturing never got as fractious as it did in the UK (The BL scenario was an exceptional example of idiots in the asylum) and through international dealings, they obtained a critical mass.
But really, one must look at the modern UK operations. The vehicles have far more fashionable appeal than anything French (being more prestige, not mass-market); although I still hear worrying noises about JLR reliability (so do the owners) and even Mini with their non-exploding airbags & creaky steering.
However, the Japanese cars made here are generally excellent. Which takes us full circle; it's the detail in the engineering and the manufacturing process that makes a good car, not some 'image' created by repeating the mantra "....make good cars" until everyone believes it!
07-17-2008, 09:58 AM
#26
Looking at europe's biggest truckmaker in 1961 actually shows better what went wrong:
Being outside the EEC, Leyland failed to spot the rationalisation and mergers and acquisitions going on, until it was invaded by trucks of more comfortable, modern design.
Due to worries about this fact, Wilson & Benn virtually forced through a merger of near-equals (Leyland-Triumph and BMC). This was big state trying to do the right thing and of course it was the wrong thing; after a decade of bickering and infighting and subsidies (which undermined the REST of the UK industry!) it was all over. The remains struggled on until the Chinese took them away.
That inter-european trade and colonial depedences helped the likes of Renault swallow its rivals in digestable lumps and with co-operation with MAN and Volvo, develop better (if still dodgily-built!) designs.
Being outside the EEC, Leyland failed to spot the rationalisation and mergers and acquisitions going on, until it was invaded by trucks of more comfortable, modern design.
Due to worries about this fact, Wilson & Benn virtually forced through a merger of near-equals (Leyland-Triumph and BMC). This was big state trying to do the right thing and of course it was the wrong thing; after a decade of bickering and infighting and subsidies (which undermined the REST of the UK industry!) it was all over. The remains struggled on until the Chinese took them away.
That inter-european trade and colonial depedences helped the likes of Renault swallow its rivals in digestable lumps and with co-operation with MAN and Volvo, develop better (if still dodgily-built!) designs.
07-17-2008, 05:12 PM
#27
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You see Scoobie,
There seems to me to be a world wide tide STILL going on of Honda hate-ism (new word for Wikki). No torque, the usual crap.
Maybe this was born out of the fact that in the early 90s in the US especially, but also around the world where Euro cars were not sold other than MB and BMW, Honda Civics and CRX's were the main game in town for cheap thrills. Throw in the original Volks Vagen hot hatches maybe, and a couple of others, but the H was the main game (in the US).
So I guess the then Honda owners got all cocky, had all the parts in the world to hop up their ride etc etc etc. I suspect it this that turned the non Honda world against Honda OWNERS - and by extension, Honda.
Now (in the US) there are lots more performance options (outside of their domestics), a great deal of them more powerful. In the mean time, Honda continues along its chosen path - making "under" powered cars run with more powerful stuff. That no one can deny.
It seems people still like to stamp out any Honda "glory" as soon as we, the "misties", cheer on a new product or direction from the H. The fact remains though, Honda is an innovative engineering company.
So the original question you asked in this thread makes you look like you are riding the Honda hate-ism wave, there because although you all love to hate on Honda, you know they are really very good cars - all of them, from a really innovative Japanese company.
Disclaimer:
All the views expressed above are those of this poster only. Any resemblance to any other point of view from any of the other characters on here is purely coincidence.
There seems to me to be a world wide tide STILL going on of Honda hate-ism (new word for Wikki). No torque, the usual crap.
I'm interested to see what the NSX is like though,reading the reviews it seems power won't be lacking at least.
So I guess the then Honda owners got all cocky, had all the parts in the world to hop up their ride etc etc etc. I suspect it this that turned the non Honda world against Honda OWNERS - and by extension, Honda.
Now (in the US) there are lots more performance options (outside of their domestics), a great deal of them more powerful. In the mean time, Honda continues along its chosen path - making "under" powered cars run with more powerful stuff. That no one can deny.
It seems people still like to stamp out any Honda "glory" as soon as we, the "misties", cheer on a new product or direction from the H. The fact remains though, Honda is an innovative engineering company.
So the original question you asked in this thread makes you look like you are riding the Honda hate-ism wave, there because although you all love to hate on Honda, you know they are really very good cars - all of them, from a really innovative Japanese company.
Disclaimer:
All the views expressed above are those of this poster only. Any resemblance to any other point of view from any of the other characters on here is purely coincidence.
07-18-2008, 02:30 AM
#28
It's also clever marketing; because Honda usually concentrates on making the fairly staid versions good, they don't waste money on making a good 'halo' model to the detriment of the cooking ones.
The Germans cleverer marketing skills mean that all the press attention goes to the excellent M3, which rubs off on the 320 which sells, despite being a fairly unexceptional version. The US & UK markets also display an unusual degree of snobbery, which means that cool Oriental youths in their rice rocket Civics may not entirely encourage stuffy middle-class image that some may find desirable
Even in the US, pointing out that anything imported isn't a "BMW" and "Good" still goes on. And its the same here. Propoganda relies on ignorance, which is the most common element in the universe.
I think that Hondas are still bought here by ladies with blue hair is quite cool, since the performance cars are discreet. But it's only really bikers and engineers who otherwise appreciate the hidden qualities. There is a degree of slightly rebellious engineering integrity that survives at Honda, which has been lost in most other motor companies due to their corporate natures and obsessive platform-sharing. Most of the adventurous other independents have been swallowed by the foregoing corporations.
There are thus few companies left, where a true spirit of engineering exists and has not been overridden by marketing considerations; Honda is undoubtebly the biggest and most successful of these.
It is refreshing that they can satisfy corporate earnings expectations, yet still have room for innovation. Compare & contrast to say, some US companies, where engineering seems a dirty word, yet they successfully haemorrhage money.
The Germans cleverer marketing skills mean that all the press attention goes to the excellent M3, which rubs off on the 320 which sells, despite being a fairly unexceptional version. The US & UK markets also display an unusual degree of snobbery, which means that cool Oriental youths in their rice rocket Civics may not entirely encourage stuffy middle-class image that some may find desirable
Even in the US, pointing out that anything imported isn't a "BMW" and "Good" still goes on. And its the same here. Propoganda relies on ignorance, which is the most common element in the universe.
I think that Hondas are still bought here by ladies with blue hair is quite cool, since the performance cars are discreet. But it's only really bikers and engineers who otherwise appreciate the hidden qualities. There is a degree of slightly rebellious engineering integrity that survives at Honda, which has been lost in most other motor companies due to their corporate natures and obsessive platform-sharing. Most of the adventurous other independents have been swallowed by the foregoing corporations.
There are thus few companies left, where a true spirit of engineering exists and has not been overridden by marketing considerations; Honda is undoubtebly the biggest and most successful of these.
It is refreshing that they can satisfy corporate earnings expectations, yet still have room for innovation. Compare & contrast to say, some US companies, where engineering seems a dirty word, yet they successfully haemorrhage money.
