How environmentally friendly is a Prius
07-06-2011, 06:01 AM
#32
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In theory, the more frugal an engine, the less pollutants. But this doesn't always hold true. The way engines burn the fuel, and also how efficient and effective any catalytic converters and particulate filters matters.
Essentially, we need to compare the pollutants produced in unique hybrid components to any reduction during the vehicle lifecycle.
Then offset the reduction in supply chain of fuel.
To do it properly is very complex.
Put another way, I've just produced a new vehicle, it produces no co2. However it emits polonium...
Essentially, we need to compare the pollutants produced in unique hybrid components to any reduction during the vehicle lifecycle.
Then offset the reduction in supply chain of fuel.
To do it properly is very complex.
Put another way, I've just produced a new vehicle, it produces no co2. However it emits polonium...
07-06-2011, 06:15 AM
#33
UK Moderator
Whenever I see this argument, rarely do people mention the environmental benefit within towns or cities. Even if there is no difference in total CO2 over the manufacturing and ownership period, then surely not having to breathe noxious diesel (and I include modern diesels in this statement) fumes and petrol fumes from older cars with no catalytic converters is something worth striving for.
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
The hybrids stink a lot less and are much quieter (which does mean one has to look more carefully before crossing the road, but that's hardly a huge problem).
07-06-2011, 08:29 AM
#34
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Toyota UK was here the other week and he just couldn't get it into his head that I wouldn't be putting the Prius on the company car list. I couldn't get any of our guys to choose that car over a BMW 320ED.
07-06-2011, 11:07 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by lower' timestamp='1309858295' post='20746813
[quote name='fluffyninja' timestamp='1309729225' post='20743736']
Lower, so far as I can tell its just a ratio C02 compared to a conventional build (being 100% or 1). Therefore showing a marginal increase in the manufacturing output of CO2 compared to conventional but with a large improvement in running outputs
Lower, so far as I can tell its just a ratio C02 compared to a conventional build (being 100% or 1). Therefore showing a marginal increase in the manufacturing output of CO2 compared to conventional but with a large improvement in running outputs
Nor can you use this chart to give any indication of how an older car compares to a prius. For example, the Co2 has already been produced in manufacturing an older conventional car, so surely an ongoing evaluation should compare the total cost of producing and running your prius with just the running costs of the older car.
If one were to to an older car comparison, then how much older would you go. A 70s car will have vastly higher CO2 emissions than a 90s car, for example.
There's a lot more detail here http://www.toyotagb-press.co.uk/prot...eclaration.pdf see page 10 for an older version of Fluffy's graph but states that "comparable vehicles are: Conventional petrol (Euro 4) and diesel vehicles (Euro 5) and Equivalent power performance"
What's very clear is that the CO2 emitted in production is pretty low compared to that emitted from driving, and that goes for all types of cars, whether, petrol, diesel or hybrid.
Whether CO2 emissions actually matter is another story...
[/quote]
Exactly, assuming that you run a conventional vehicle for the same length of time as a current production vehicle you could near enough write off the production CO2 levels. That's against a brand new vehicle using current engine developments. Take a "Classic" car of some descripion and how many have a reasonably efficient engine? Probably the nearest to a modern classic with an energy efficient engine is the S2000 or an MX5. S2000's putting out 237g/km v 89g/km for a Prius. The S is putting out over 2.5 times the quantity of CO2 emissions. I'm sure it's possible to fish out an obscure engine that is as efficient/more efficient but how widespread are they and available to the public?
Also, again I'm with you ref the does CO2 bit really matter.
Sod the fuel, that mfg. energy is so relatively small a proportion is what's dubious. Looks like they're starting at the factory gate & not trawling raw earths out of Russia/China every six years when the battery packs up or sweating in the steel mines of Madeupistan.
If the graph were in megajoules, I'd give it some credence. Since it's in CO[sub]2[/sub] s instead, I call it b ulls hit. I don't for one minute doubt Toyota's sincerity, it's just there are also bollock-brained forces afoot.
If the graph were in megajoules, I'd give it some credence. Since it's in CO[sub]2[/sub] s instead, I call it b ulls hit. I don't for one minute doubt Toyota's sincerity, it's just there are also bollock-brained forces afoot.
would be worried about your engine at 3 years). Battery can be roughly assumed to last the life of the vehicle. Plenty of GEN1 Prius out there still running on original batteries1. Key point of the engine is it runs an Atkinson cycle (strictly speaking a modified Atkinson cycle since it replicates it but isn't the true cycle). Highly efficient power cycle at the expense of power output. Means that for steady state running it can run very efficiently and then for acceleration it can kick in the electric side to act as a buffer rather than take the engine out of an efficient operating mode
2. Allows many accessories to run in more efficient modes. Key example being water pump or power steering. The water pump at highway speeds can actually run at very low speeds due to the high level of aerodynamic cooling. The electric pump can do this. Conventional pumps produce large amounts of drag since they're running as flat out as the engine is when they don't need to be. Same with electric power steering systems
3. As mentioned Heavily optimised aerodynamics compared to most vehicles (ok that bit isn't "hybrid" engine as such but is a feature of the car)
See above comment
07-06-2011, 11:22 AM
#36
Registered User
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by gaddafi' timestamp='1309890026' post='20748156
[quote name='Nick Graves' timestamp='1309888434' post='20748058']
They DO mention mining, and as stated, the brochure is far more factual than the graph.
It's merely that it's an incredibly complex measure and the AGW 'fact' has ensured that one must be very cautious about such stuff being based upon assumptions that later turn out to be hogwash.
As posted earlier, since Toyota are no doubt comparing it to their own 2.0 car, such irregularities are evened out.
The replacement battery thing can also be overstated - imagine the energy required to make a replacement HP Diesel pump & turbo, or to decoke a fouled DI gas engine regularly, for example.
They DO mention mining, and as stated, the brochure is far more factual than the graph.
It's merely that it's an incredibly complex measure and the AGW 'fact' has ensured that one must be very cautious about such stuff being based upon assumptions that later turn out to be hogwash.
As posted earlier, since Toyota are no doubt comparing it to their own 2.0 car, such irregularities are evened out.
The replacement battery thing can also be overstated - imagine the energy required to make a replacement HP Diesel pump & turbo, or to decoke a fouled DI gas engine regularly, for example.
I tear these bloody things to pieces most weeks - they are usually presented by some twenty something twat via Powerpoint
Isn't that the truth! Probably why I boiled up over the use of CO[sub]2[/sub] s as if it were a legitimate SI unit.
I realise I'm a bit unusual in enjoying reading dry technical papers from SAE or whatever, but all this simpleton stuff with cliche flowers or babies or smiley minorities all over it just makes me all Tourette's.
Honestly; it'd be like if I had a website & used my avatar as statistical proof of why that makes my practice better than all the other beancountancy firms. I'd be swamped with business, probably and no-one would see the parody.
[/quote]
I suspect the reason it's used is CO2 is more relevant to the average Joe Public rather than SI units. Unfortunately CO2 scoring is more drilled into people than all the actual science they'll ever be presented with. You have to get the message across in a way people will understand and unfortunately in this case it means using a popular measure people are familiar with
Whenever I see this argument, rarely do people mention the environmental benefit within towns or cities. Even if there is no difference in total CO2 over the manufacturing and ownership period, then surely not having to breathe noxious diesel (and I include modern diesels in this statement) fumes and petrol fumes from older cars with no catalytic converters is something worth striving for.
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
No, because co2 us pretty irrelevant to pedestrians. It's all the other stuff you need to care about.
Most electronics create some pretty nasty pollutants during manufacturing. I'd be interested to see those figures. Joules is a reasonable measure, but a better one would be the differential volumes of all the pollutants. Co2 is the least of our worries.
Most electronics create some pretty nasty pollutants during manufacturing. I'd be interested to see those figures. Joules is a reasonable measure, but a better one would be the differential volumes of all the pollutants. Co2 is the least of our worries.
Originally Posted by Dan Hale' timestamp='1309866885' post='20746955
Most times I see one they're screaming down the motorway in lane 3.
So I doubt the hybrid element is actually doing much then.
So I doubt the hybrid element is actually doing much then.
Toyota UK was here the other week and he just couldn't get it into his head that I wouldn't be putting the Prius on the company car list. I couldn't get any of our guys to choose that car over a BMW 320ED.
I work for Toyota UK and they try not to allow us close to the general public
Toyota GB is the sales and marketing arm.
I can't really argue with that. If you're offered a BMW or a Toyota as a company car the only thing that's going to sell it potentially is environMENTALism or BIK breaks
07-06-2011, 03:06 PM
#38
Registered User
Originally Posted by dave.irl' timestamp='1309958534' post='20751039
Whenever I see this argument, rarely do people mention the environmental benefit within towns or cities. Even if there is no difference in total CO2 over the manufacturing and ownership period, then surely not having to breathe noxious diesel (and I include modern diesels in this statement) fumes and petrol fumes from older cars with no catalytic converters is something worth striving for.
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
As a regular pedestrian as well as car owner, I would be much happier for all the CO2 and other toxic stuff to be produced at the factory rather than pumped out of the tail of cars into my lungs as I walk down the street.
Anyone agree?
07-06-2011, 11:04 PM
#39
UK Moderator
Originally Posted by lovegroova' timestamp='1309961746' post='20751232
I've mentioned this before, in fact obliquely in this thread already. As a regular pedestrian, I'd much rather a fleet of hybrids driving around than a fleet of diesels.
The hybrids stink a lot less and are much quieter (which does mean one has to look more carefully before crossing the road, but that's hardly a huge problem).
07-07-2011, 12:21 AM
#40
Banned
quite an interesting article:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...icle-recycling
a couple of things jump out at me
$2.5BN in stimulus funds!!!
they don't know the answer to the question
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...icle-recycling
a couple of things jump out at me
$2.5BN in stimulus funds!!!
they don't know the answer to the question