4x4's
01-15-2010, 05:17 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by Rob88,Jan 15 2010, 02:00 PM
Slow day in the office. 
Takes up more road space which causes blockages and congestion;
Not really. Sure a 4x4 might be bigger, but any car sitting over a junction will block it, and when you take into safe gaps between cars the difference between the road space taken by the different cars is marginal.
Line up 20 X5s and 20 A4 Estates on a raid in normal traffic and I don’t see there would be any more or less congestion.
Causes more pollution;
Yep. But then again, unless you drive a prius or VW Blue thing then it’s all very small differences.
A 4x4 driven normally is less polluting than an A3 driven at max revs everywhere.
Makes more noise
Not always - and besides, roads aren't exactly known to be peaceful qiuiet idylic places at the best of times.
Obstructs the view of other road users;
Yep. But offers great views for the driver, which is safer.
Will cause more damage to other road users in the event of a crash;
Yep, probably. But will keep the driver and passengers safer when someone crashes into them
Will cause more road wear.
A tiny amount in the grand scheme of things.
That's why people don't like them.
I like them. I think they are the bees knees.
Takes up more road space which causes blockages and congestion;
Not really. Sure a 4x4 might be bigger, but any car sitting over a junction will block it, and when you take into safe gaps between cars the difference between the road space taken by the different cars is marginal.
Line up 20 X5s and 20 A4 Estates on a raid in normal traffic and I don’t see there would be any more or less congestion.
Causes more pollution;
Yep. But then again, unless you drive a prius or VW Blue thing then it’s all very small differences.
A 4x4 driven normally is less polluting than an A3 driven at max revs everywhere.
Makes more noise
Not always - and besides, roads aren't exactly known to be peaceful qiuiet idylic places at the best of times.
Obstructs the view of other road users;
Yep. But offers great views for the driver, which is safer.
Will cause more damage to other road users in the event of a crash;
Yep, probably. But will keep the driver and passengers safer when someone crashes into them
Will cause more road wear.
A tiny amount in the grand scheme of things.
That's why people don't like them.
I like them. I think they are the bees knees.
Pollution - "All things being equal" is key here - i.e. same engines. Driving style is irrelevant. and it's clearly not small differences - read the figures I provided above.
Noise - yes always - bigger tyres and more wind noise - fact.
Not safer - one person being able to see is negated by all the others not being able to.
Driver and passengers safer - and we're back to selfishness (understandable as it is in this regard).
Thanks for accepting the road wear argument.
Remember, we are discussing why lots of people don't like them being driven around out towns and cities, and why there are sound reasons for those feelings. I think I've made it pretty clear.
I can see why people want to own one (Jo's specialist needs for towing and so on are a great example) but for lots of people, they are un-necessary an cause problems for lots of other people.
01-15-2010, 05:21 AM
#73
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Dreamer, I understand your points of view on 4x4s
You have one because you need one - and if you need one looks definitely come in to what you buy. (Thankfully or we'd see more Ssangyongs on the road)
But if you only used the Landcruiser to take a kid to school and nip to Tesco then that would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
You have one because you need one - and if you need one looks definitely come in to what you buy. (Thankfully or we'd see more Ssangyongs on the road)
But if you only used the Landcruiser to take a kid to school and nip to Tesco then that would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
01-15-2010, 05:24 AM
#74
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I still don't get the problems they cause;
Width - why such an issue, presuming you are a competent driver which admittedly many people aren't, and can safely navigate a road of parked cars, and open your door in a parking space without dinging someone elses door. Not the car's fault....
Pollution - they do produce more emissions in general, although I don't know all the facts - but how damaging are cars to the environment in terms of the overall emissions of the world? Honest question not a piss take / wind up.
Noise - not sure, want to see the numbers. Wide low profile tyres are loud. Wind noise probably more, though I don't remember wind noise being an issue when I've stood next to roads - more likely engine (intake and exhaust and engine running noise) and tyre noise.
Safer - ok we've said that pedestrians can't see over them, but for everyone else why is it such an issue?
I just don't buy the fact they cause such issues for other people. I'm one of those people that likes the facts proven, it winds Chris up constantly so don't take it personally (I know we are having friendly banter here anyway Simon )
Width - why such an issue, presuming you are a competent driver which admittedly many people aren't, and can safely navigate a road of parked cars, and open your door in a parking space without dinging someone elses door. Not the car's fault....
Pollution - they do produce more emissions in general, although I don't know all the facts - but how damaging are cars to the environment in terms of the overall emissions of the world? Honest question not a piss take / wind up.
Noise - not sure, want to see the numbers. Wide low profile tyres are loud. Wind noise probably more, though I don't remember wind noise being an issue when I've stood next to roads - more likely engine (intake and exhaust and engine running noise) and tyre noise.
Safer - ok we've said that pedestrians can't see over them, but for everyone else why is it such an issue?
I just don't buy the fact they cause such issues for other people. I'm one of those people that likes the facts proven, it winds Chris up constantly so don't take it personally (I know we are having friendly banter here anyway Simon
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01-15-2010, 05:27 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by GarethB,Jan 15 2010, 03:21 PM
But if you only used the Landcruiser to take a kid to school and nip to Tesco then that would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
Yes it would be unnecessary, but why any more ridiculous than some other car with more space/capacity/power than I really need?
A 1.1 polo (or a 903cc fiat uno like my first car) would satisfy that requirement (presumably, I've never had kids, but my mum used to fit my sister and her friends in it)
To turn it around slightly (and being devil's advocate because I love cars obviously) isn't an S2000 or any other sports car ridiculous? If you need motorised transport at all, surely you only need a small engined, low polluting, bare bones, comfortable machine to get you from A to B. Anything more than that is unnecessary.. performance we buy for many reasons including ego and FUN and ENJOYMENT. Fun and enjoyment are purely subjective things and also factor into purchase of a 4x4.
01-15-2010, 05:30 AM
#76
Originally Posted by GarethB,Jan 15 2010, 02:21 PM
But if you only used the Landcruiser to take a kid to school and nip to Tesco then that would be ridiculous wouldn't it?
Are these any less ridiculous than using a Landcruiser? I'd say they were more ridiculous given their complete lack of real-world relevance. But I wouldn't want to deny the owners the choice to do so.
01-15-2010, 05:32 AM
#77
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Originally Posted by dreamer,Jan 15 2010, 03:24 PM
why such an issue, presuming you are a competent driver which admittedly many people aren't, and can safely navigate a road of parked cars, and open your door in a parking space without dinging someone elses door. Not the car's fault....
01-15-2010, 05:33 AM
#78
UK Moderator
The comparison is what's important, Jo. 4x4s are worse than comparable estate cars in all of the areas I've mentioned.
Door dings are another area, the extra width inevitably makes this worse. Well pointed out
Safety is that if you are hit by one, whatever type of road user you are, you'll come off worse than if you're hit by an estate car, mostly because of the additional weight. Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity-squared.
The 4x4s are roughly 25% heavier than the estate car equivalents, and that makes a big difference.
The additional reduction in visibility for other road users is, as you say, another bad factor.
Noise - more work is required from the engine to accelerate the vehicle because of the weight, and thus more noise is produced.
Door dings are another area, the extra width inevitably makes this worse. Well pointed out
Safety is that if you are hit by one, whatever type of road user you are, you'll come off worse than if you're hit by an estate car, mostly because of the additional weight. Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity-squared.
The 4x4s are roughly 25% heavier than the estate car equivalents, and that makes a big difference.
The additional reduction in visibility for other road users is, as you say, another bad factor.
Noise - more work is required from the engine to accelerate the vehicle because of the weight, and thus more noise is produced.
01-15-2010, 05:34 AM
#79
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You can't blame the car for other people's incompetence!
If we're going down that route, shouldn't we ALL be driving 4x4 of some sort and making RWD cars illegal because there are crashes caused by people losing control of them due to their RWD nature?
If we're going down that route, shouldn't we ALL be driving 4x4 of some sort and making RWD cars illegal because there are crashes caused by people losing control of them due to their RWD nature?
01-15-2010, 05:39 AM
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Ok so facts:
Safety: Yes you will probably be worse off if a 4x4 doing 30mph hits you compared to an estate car because it weighs more and the bonnets used to be higher (from a brief google there seems to be a lot of work going on there to make them more pedestrian friendly). Some cars are worse than others, so are you suggesting we outlaw all cars which score worse than the safest car out there?
Re the door dings - you can't blame the car - but I was trying to understand why the width is such an issue (having proven that they are no longer than the baseline car chosen)
I don't get the reduced visibility still. Having driven (in a normal height car) behind other (normal height) cars, I still can't see over them or around them or through them, so where's the difference with a 4x4?
Noise - really does depend on the car! The LC is quite a noisey old diesel but I'm not sure it's much noisier than other diesels of its era - perhaps a bit yes. But tyre noise is a big issue in road-noise. I'm not sure what the db comparisons are between 4x4 and estate car of the same era/engine.
Safety: Yes you will probably be worse off if a 4x4 doing 30mph hits you compared to an estate car because it weighs more and the bonnets used to be higher (from a brief google there seems to be a lot of work going on there to make them more pedestrian friendly). Some cars are worse than others, so are you suggesting we outlaw all cars which score worse than the safest car out there?
Re the door dings - you can't blame the car - but I was trying to understand why the width is such an issue (having proven that they are no longer than the baseline car chosen)
I don't get the reduced visibility still. Having driven (in a normal height car) behind other (normal height) cars, I still can't see over them or around them or through them, so where's the difference with a 4x4?
Noise - really does depend on the car! The LC is quite a noisey old diesel but I'm not sure it's much noisier than other diesels of its era - perhaps a bit yes. But tyre noise is a big issue in road-noise. I'm not sure what the db comparisons are between 4x4 and estate car of the same era/engine.