Union will be the death of US auto industry
02-17-2009, 11:01 AM
#21
I am a hardcore UNION person, I am the local Rep for F/O's at my airline but I agree these Auto UNION workers makes a lot of money for #1 little if any education and a shit product
02-17-2009, 11:04 AM
#22
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Anrosphynx,Feb 17 2009, 10:16 AM
then go into a different specialty.
You can play that kind of game with someone that hasn't gone to medical school, but I've been there.
You going into primary care? peds? internal med? then don't expect to get paid. or do better on step 1.
But don't cry me a river if you are in radiology/derm/anesth, ect...
You can play that kind of game with someone that hasn't gone to medical school, but I've been there.
You going into primary care? peds? internal med? then don't expect to get paid. or do better on step 1.
But don't cry me a river if you are in radiology/derm/anesth, ect...
I am not in primary care.
you can't tell what specialty I'm in from my (clickable) sig and name? Really?
02-17-2009, 11:42 AM
#23
Registered User
i would not put anyone down for a hs ed...many people do well without college for some reason. i value college, for myself, and my kids, and planned for the investment in their future.
the unions are no longer needed in these times...people need work, they need projects to hire them and pay them so they can spend...that is the stimulis bill, and pork or not, i am for it now...we need help now...
i am self employed, college never did much for me in terms of business, i have never taken a business course and been self employed for 30 years. i have been lucky, had a bit of talent, and yes this economy impacts me as well....
let us pass the bill, sign it into law, agree that we need something big ...now...
the unions have to give, or they will be without members that can pay their dues...after all that is the real reason they exist in today's times. and yes i have belonged to 2 unions, i do not believe relying on a union pension or social security is a good basis for retirement. you need to take care of your owsn plans and future, that is what you can bank on.
the unions are no longer needed in these times...people need work, they need projects to hire them and pay them so they can spend...that is the stimulis bill, and pork or not, i am for it now...we need help now...
i am self employed, college never did much for me in terms of business, i have never taken a business course and been self employed for 30 years. i have been lucky, had a bit of talent, and yes this economy impacts me as well....
let us pass the bill, sign it into law, agree that we need something big ...now...
the unions have to give, or they will be without members that can pay their dues...after all that is the real reason they exist in today's times. and yes i have belonged to 2 unions, i do not believe relying on a union pension or social security is a good basis for retirement. you need to take care of your owsn plans and future, that is what you can bank on.
02-17-2009, 12:30 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by S2020,Feb 17 2009, 12:04 PM
you've miss my point. My point is a HS grad should not be demanding the kind of salary a physician command, even the lowest paying specialty.
I am not in primary care.
you can't tell what specialty I'm in from my (clickable) sig and name? Really?
I am not in primary care.
you can't tell what specialty I'm in from my (clickable) sig and name? Really?
You think you have it bad? Lets take teachers. Tell me that just about everyone else should be making more than them... They are probably the MOST UNDERPAID profession out there.
and i think you missed my point. I wasn't asking if you are a primary doctor/peds/ect.. But you are taking your example out of context. Sure, primary doctors/internal medicine doctors are probably underpaid based on the amount of education they have. However, you have to balance their pay with the pay of the higher earning specialties.
02-17-2009, 01:20 PM
#26
Originally Posted by thebig33tuna,Feb 17 2009, 01:45 PM
supply and demand. lots of people want to become teachers and are willing to do it even knowing that they'll make crap for money.
same with many other fields...
same with many other fields...
02-17-2009, 01:31 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by hirev,Feb 17 2009, 12:42 PM
i would not put anyone down for a hs ed...many people do well without college for some reason. i value college, for myself, and my kids, and planned for the investment in their future.
HS Ed should not be a restriction on the upper limit of income but if you have no special skills, then don't expect to be paid more than you're worth, especially if your demand will lead your employer to be bankrupt.
02-17-2009, 02:00 PM
#28
Agreed that education isn't the end all in terms of wages, but those folks who do achieve higher wages without one or even a HS diploma is because they have a talent/skill/ambition/tolerance for risk that isn't easily replaceable even in the free market. A line worker is none of those, their wages are secured by unions.
Also, I agree that teachers are underpaid but riddle me this: these are educated folk who knew the wages going in, so why go into it and complain? I ask this because I wanted to be a high school teacher, but found that I could not afford my obligations on a teacher's income. The profession offers great hours (well, vacation), comparatively low pressure despite the high stress, and a high sense of satisfaction which beats pushing pencils and making numbers match. Also, the notion that policemen or firemen get underpaid is completely bunk, around here police officers start at 65K a year and will earn 85K a year before overtime, a lot of officers I spoke to are pulling in six figures with all the overtime they're working. And firemen have a fantastic job, find me one that complains about their gig and look up how competitive it is to get in (I also looked into these professions as well).
Most of us didn't grow up thinking I want to be an accountant or work middle management and wanted to be a teacher or firemen, but then you found out what the wages are or ran out of talent/ambition (like becoming a doctor or lawyer).
I want to open a shop that sells tuner parts for a select range of models with a garage to install parts and strictly do tuning type work, but I know I'm more likely to fail than to succeed. So should I go ahead with what I want to do and then complain why I don't make more knowing this going into it?
Also, I agree that teachers are underpaid but riddle me this: these are educated folk who knew the wages going in, so why go into it and complain? I ask this because I wanted to be a high school teacher, but found that I could not afford my obligations on a teacher's income. The profession offers great hours (well, vacation), comparatively low pressure despite the high stress, and a high sense of satisfaction which beats pushing pencils and making numbers match. Also, the notion that policemen or firemen get underpaid is completely bunk, around here police officers start at 65K a year and will earn 85K a year before overtime, a lot of officers I spoke to are pulling in six figures with all the overtime they're working. And firemen have a fantastic job, find me one that complains about their gig and look up how competitive it is to get in (I also looked into these professions as well).
Most of us didn't grow up thinking I want to be an accountant or work middle management and wanted to be a teacher or firemen, but then you found out what the wages are or ran out of talent/ambition (like becoming a doctor or lawyer).
I want to open a shop that sells tuner parts for a select range of models with a garage to install parts and strictly do tuning type work, but I know I'm more likely to fail than to succeed. So should I go ahead with what I want to do and then complain why I don't make more knowing this going into it?
02-17-2009, 02:40 PM
#29
Registered User
Originally Posted by thebig33tuna,Feb 17 2009, 10:35 AM
-employs a couple people full time/part time to work there, employs a local construction company to build it, generates minor amounts of revenue for local business by drawing tourists
-employs a local construction company to build the hangers, generates revenue for the airport by bringing in the jets
-employs construction companies again, designers, gets more people going to the zoo i guess..
-uhhh... employs more law enforcement officers...?
-construction again... draws tourism, again...
-tourism + construction, again
sooooo all that $ goes into local economies, which theoretically might get those people spending on other things... helping the economy.
disclaimer: in a normal stable economy, i'd be universally opposed to EVERYTHING on that list. it certainly qualifies as pork. but it might, just might, help. so unless you have some amazingly better idea....
-employs a local construction company to build the hangers, generates revenue for the airport by bringing in the jets
-employs construction companies again, designers, gets more people going to the zoo i guess..
-uhhh... employs more law enforcement officers...?
-construction again... draws tourism, again...
-tourism + construction, again
sooooo all that $ goes into local economies, which theoretically might get those people spending on other things... helping the economy.
disclaimer: in a normal stable economy, i'd be universally opposed to EVERYTHING on that list. it certainly qualifies as pork. but it might, just might, help. so unless you have some amazingly better idea....
its all politcal pork at its finest to further a politicians short term agenda. the greater good doesnt even come into play at all.
02-17-2009, 03:00 PM
#30
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F'in A how many times do we have to go over this subject before people actually LEARN about what is ACTUALLY going on?
These people are NOT making $69 dollars a damn hour. It's a theoretical statistic that makes all kinds of assumptions. I did the calculations on this two months ago, the last time someone got on here and bitched about all the money every single UAW worker supposedly takes home (but in reality does not). The figures the industry cites are wildly impossible to sustain, and are not the real picture. The actual per hour salary is more around $30 (at the highest, no less), and in a few cases Japanese-owned plants in the US pay workers slightly more.
The figures GM cites are entirely unworkable. Go to UAW's website and see how many people they employ, then multiply that number by $69 dollars an hour. It's bullshit. Look up the thread from mid-December called "UAW is continuing their mission, to kill the american auto industry". I posted https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=655594&st=150)]several examples[/URL] why GM's figures are hogwash. And BTW, the number of UAW workers at the Big 3 is *going down*, yet they are still claiming the same problem and the same figures. And this is on top of the fact that they are not asking for the levels of money required to clear the kinds of quarterly losses they are telling us they would feasibly be sustaining under the $69/hr figure. Some red flags should be going up. And this is in addition to the concessions the UAW has and is still making. GM acts like the UAW has given up nothing, and that is flatly not true.
These people are NOT making $69 dollars a damn hour. It's a theoretical statistic that makes all kinds of assumptions. I did the calculations on this two months ago, the last time someone got on here and bitched about all the money every single UAW worker supposedly takes home (but in reality does not). The figures the industry cites are wildly impossible to sustain, and are not the real picture. The actual per hour salary is more around $30 (at the highest, no less), and in a few cases Japanese-owned plants in the US pay workers slightly more.
The figures GM cites are entirely unworkable. Go to UAW's website and see how many people they employ, then multiply that number by $69 dollars an hour. It's bullshit. Look up the thread from mid-December called "UAW is continuing their mission, to kill the american auto industry". I posted https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=655594&st=150)]several examples[/URL] why GM's figures are hogwash. And BTW, the number of UAW workers at the Big 3 is *going down*, yet they are still claiming the same problem and the same figures. And this is on top of the fact that they are not asking for the levels of money required to clear the kinds of quarterly losses they are telling us they would feasibly be sustaining under the $69/hr figure. Some red flags should be going up. And this is in addition to the concessions the UAW has and is still making. GM acts like the UAW has given up nothing, and that is flatly not true.