Union will be the death of US auto industry
02-17-2009, 05:40 AM
#11
Without the threat of shutting the union out or bargaining them down, companies that are based in the USA will not operate at all. GM can't afford to spend stupid amounts of money on relatively unskilled labourers.
02-17-2009, 05:49 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by S2020,Feb 16 2009, 10:01 PM
no I am not.
I understand that $69 is the total but this is all benefit (current plus future) to the employee. Basically this is the benefit to the worker. There are other costs associated with hiring workers (workers comp insurance, social sec taxes, unemployment taxes, etc) Which the employees don't see/enjoy.
Often a physician is hired, he is done so as an independent contractor. He pays his own way (health insurance, taxes, dental, malpractice etc). I am comparing a high school grad to a physician b/c of the outrageous demand the union is asking of a dying company.
I had friends who didn't make $69/hour after 11 or more demanding years of medical training. This is how much an AVERAGE GM worker makes.
I understand that $69 is the total but this is all benefit (current plus future) to the employee. Basically this is the benefit to the worker. There are other costs associated with hiring workers (workers comp insurance, social sec taxes, unemployment taxes, etc) Which the employees don't see/enjoy.
Often a physician is hired, he is done so as an independent contractor. He pays his own way (health insurance, taxes, dental, malpractice etc). I am comparing a high school grad to a physician b/c of the outrageous demand the union is asking of a dying company.
I had friends who didn't make $69/hour after 11 or more demanding years of medical training. This is how much an AVERAGE GM worker makes.
Let's assume a current employee cost say $45 an hour for all expenses (a number I am making up). The cost above $45 is effectively the cost of all hourly retirees divided between all active hourly workers. If in the future the ratio of active to retired employees goes up then each active pays less per retired person. Conversely if the ratio goes down the reverse is true. Furthermore, the companies have moved away from defined benefit pension plans to fixed benefit. So the new wave of employees will not get the same benefits as the retired guys. That means the current guys are paying in more (if we assume they would actually collect that full hourly rate) than they will get out.
02-17-2009, 07:34 AM
#14
Originally Posted by 2004S2000,Feb 16 2009, 11:07 PM
I bet the posters in this thread were opposed to the stimulus bill as well.
If you're willing to get your news from right wing talking points and aren't willing to do real research, would rather believe what you want to believe, then there's no stopping you. But ignorance is what's killing this country. People who voted for the politicians who supported deregulation and so called free trade all these years. Look what it got you. The only thing worse than ignorant people are arrogant ignorant people who think they are knowledgeable.
That hourly wage quoted in the right wing media includes support for already retired workers. The negotiations going on right now are over the benefits to these already retired workers. Just read the major papers online.
Without the threat of unionization companies that are still based in the U.S. would pay much less. We have no were near full employment so wages are not supported by demand for labor.
If you're willing to get your news from right wing talking points and aren't willing to do real research, would rather believe what you want to believe, then there's no stopping you. But ignorance is what's killing this country. People who voted for the politicians who supported deregulation and so called free trade all these years. Look what it got you. The only thing worse than ignorant people are arrogant ignorant people who think they are knowledgeable.
That hourly wage quoted in the right wing media includes support for already retired workers. The negotiations going on right now are over the benefits to these already retired workers. Just read the major papers online.
Without the threat of unionization companies that are still based in the U.S. would pay much less. We have no were near full employment so wages are not supported by demand for labor.
Like I said, I hope those numbers are incorrect/misleading, but regardless it's well known that the UAW demands a higher wage than what toyota/honda/etc pays their non union workers. The concept of unions in most scenarios is obsolete, and the fact that the non domestic makes are able to get along without it is testament to this fact. I believe that we should give the domestics a cut, the japanese and korean governments give their domestics a competitive edge and it;s about time we do as well. However, if the UAW (who contributed to obama's campaign, I'm a moderate btw) is going to continue to demand higher wages while highly skilled workers are being laid off by the thousands and CEOs are being forced to take nothing for the year, something is horribly wrong. I don't get it, people are saying that if they lay off the UAW folks, the market will tumble yet we see thousands of highly skilled workers being laid off as it is. The industry cannot/must not collapse, the UAW is expendable.
02-17-2009, 07:50 AM
#15
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+1 The current stimulus is too much pork. Most of our (Americans') extra spending will going to China through Walmart. We needed job creation and infrastructure. We got some mostly handouts.
Oh, and the UAW is at least as evil and clueless as the automotive CEO's. But we've debated those pros and cons here. Union members tend to defend them. The rest of us tear them a new one.
Oh, and the UAW is at least as evil and clueless as the automotive CEO's. But we've debated those pros and cons here. Union members tend to defend them. The rest of us tear them a new one.
02-17-2009, 08:52 AM
#16
Originally Posted by Penforhire,Feb 17 2009, 11:50 AM
+1 The current stimulus is too much pork. Most of our (Americans') extra spending will going to China through Walmart. We needed job creation and infrastructure. We got some mostly handouts.
Oh, and the UAW is at least as evil and clueless as the automotive CEO's. But we've debated those pros and cons here. Union members tend to defend them. The rest of us tear them a new one.
Oh, and the UAW is at least as evil and clueless as the automotive CEO's. But we've debated those pros and cons here. Union members tend to defend them. The rest of us tear them a new one.
02-17-2009, 09:24 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by cbehney,Feb 17 2009, 09:52 AM
I'm curious what you consider pork in the bill that passed. I'm not arguing or disagreeing. I get sort of confused by the terms that seem to be used differently depending on perspective. I.e., pork used to be a term for earmarked spending in a member's district or state. Now it seems to be defined in a different way.
last time we had a "stimulus" package, aka the "new deal" we emerged with efficient programs such as social security...
but a few examples of pork you ask...850 billion over 1500+ pages...this question is too easy...just by doing a quick google seach with key words "pork stimulus package"
a proposed $20 million minor league baseball museum in Durham, North Carolina; $6.1 million for corporate jet hangars at the Fayetteville, Arkansas, airport; $20 million for renovations at the Philadelphia Zoo; and a $1.5 million program to reduce prostitution in Dayton, Ohio. 4.8 million polar bear exhibit at the Providence, RI zoo and a $1.5 million water ride in Miami, FL.
yes that is our government in action...
02-17-2009, 09:35 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by trainwreck,Feb 17 2009, 01:24 PM
a proposed $20 million minor league baseball museum in Durham, North Carolina; $6.1 million for corporate jet hangars at the Fayetteville, Arkansas, airport; $20 million for renovations at the Philadelphia Zoo; and a $1.5 million program to reduce prostitution in Dayton, Ohio. 4.8 million polar bear exhibit at the Providence, RI zoo and a $1.5 million water ride in Miami, FL.
-employs a local construction company to build the hangers, generates revenue for the airport by bringing in the jets
-employs construction companies again, designers, gets more people going to the zoo i guess..
-uhhh... employs more law enforcement officers...?
-construction again... draws tourism, again...
-tourism + construction, again
sooooo all that $ goes into local economies, which theoretically might get those people spending on other things... helping the economy.
disclaimer: in a normal stable economy, i'd be universally opposed to EVERYTHING on that list. it certainly qualifies as pork. but it might, just might, help. so unless you have some amazingly better idea....
02-17-2009, 10:10 AM
#20
Originally Posted by thebig33tuna,Feb 17 2009, 10:35 AM
-employs a couple people full time/part time to work there, employs a local construction company to build it, generates minor amounts of revenue for local business by drawing tourists
-employs a local construction company to build the hangers, generates revenue for the airport by bringing in the jets
-employs construction companies again, designers, gets more people going to the zoo i guess..
-uhhh... employs more law enforcement officers...?
-construction again... draws tourism, again...
-tourism + construction, again
sooooo all that $ goes into local economies, which theoretically might get those people spending on other things... helping the economy.
disclaimer: in a normal stable economy, i'd be universally opposed to EVERYTHING on that list. it certainly qualifies as pork. but it might, just might, help. so unless you have some amazingly better idea....
-employs a local construction company to build the hangers, generates revenue for the airport by bringing in the jets
-employs construction companies again, designers, gets more people going to the zoo i guess..
-uhhh... employs more law enforcement officers...?
-construction again... draws tourism, again...
-tourism + construction, again
sooooo all that $ goes into local economies, which theoretically might get those people spending on other things... helping the economy.
disclaimer: in a normal stable economy, i'd be universally opposed to EVERYTHING on that list. it certainly qualifies as pork. but it might, just might, help. so unless you have some amazingly better idea....
Those construction jobs are extremely short term and not well paying for 95% of the workers, it will not affect the economic growth of an industry since these workers with those jobs alone will not make enough to say hey, with the money I earned here I'll go and start my own business or go back to school.
Yeah, because the airline industry's growth is stunted right so they need this stimulus to expand their booming operation.
The problems most local economies are facing is not a shortage of low skill, low wage jobs or high skilled, high paying jobs, it's the middle, and none of these projects will stimulate any of these.
Thus, pork.